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"Well that's because your faith was being tested", or [insert any other variation of the No True Scotsman fallacy]. Either way, the message is clear: christianity didn't fail, you just did it wrong.
Good posts fellas. J. J. Max is a good person trying to to be the best he can be for the only Reason that matters. Religions prey on such by peddling false reasons to do your best. And when you have any doubts or questions, then they simply crank up the Guilt. You are crucifying Jesus all over again by doubting.
I'll watch them over the weekend. I know a distinction is sometimes made that the atheist thinks with certainty there is no god and the agnostic who sees no evidence chooses not to believe, but won't say for sure there's no god. But when the discussion turns to an atheist saying there's no evidence, so I think there's no god, it's easy for it to end up with the concept of not being able to prove the existence or lack of god. Lack of proof then makes it appear as if there is no difference between and atheist and agnostic. I know there's a difference, but sometimes it feels like there isn't. I lose interest when these discussions get into minutia. I don't want to start another thread on the subject now and would rather message you after I watch them.
Ok. The 2nd of the two You Tubes touches on the added complication of atheists sometimes thinking and saying 'There is no God'. In response to some definitions of "God" they feel justified in saying 'That God goes not exist" (Read I am sure of it as I am sure there are no Leprechauns) Because of course leprechauns can't be disproved and we cannot be 100% sure so technically we must be leprechaun agnostics. But we all say 'There are no leprechauns, Fairies or dragons in the garage", and nobody picks us up on it. They do pick us up when we say the same about God (and a particular definition of "God" is being posited)
This is why the 'Santa Claus' analogy is favoured. Atheists are as sure that the god of the Bible does not exist as they are sure there is no Santa Claus.
A possible first cause/Creator or cosmic intelligence is another 'God' definition again and about this ...well I am almost as sure that cannot be a plausible explanation, but I am more aware perhaps of the agnosticism aspect simply because there is so much we don't know about the universe or its origins.
What if I told you I used to tell others the very SAME thing you just typed up? I used to speak the SAME language. You are speaking to someone who walked that walk and talked that talk. You could have typed the first sentence and I could have finished your entire post for you.
Yep. You get this every time "Oh...you were never a Real Christian".
What is a "Real Christian?" (n.b not a "True Christian" which has to do with what colour the car is) it is one who hasn't left the faith yet.
Yep. You get this every time "Oh...you were never a Real Christian".
What is a "Real Christian?" (n.b not a "True Christian" which has to do with what colour the car is) it is one who hasn't left the faith yet.
It just never occurs to them that they are effectively preaching to the choir, so to speak. It reminds me of my days going to the south on visits to our southern churches. A big thing down there was grits; something they often served for breakfast. I HATED the stuff. No matter where I went, all I would hear was, "well, you never tasted how I make my grits. You never had my grits. Those others are not the real way to make grits!" Then I would try these alleged amazing grits and STILL have the same reaction and it would STILL taste the same to me. To this day, I STILL don't eat it nor will I eat it and it is not something I buy, would buy or even look for in a grocery aisle.
It just never occurs to them that they are effectively preaching to the choir, so to speak. It reminds me of my days going to the south on visits to our southern churches. A big thing down there was grits; something they often served for breakfast. I HATED the stuff. No matter where I went, all I would hear was, "well, you never tasted how I make my grits. You never had my grits. Those others are not the real way to make grits!" Then I would try these alleged amazing grits and STILL have the same reaction and it would STILL taste the same to me. To this day, I STILL don't eat it nor will I eat it and it is not something I buy, would buy or even look for in a grocery aisle.
I second that. "No true grits fails to please the palate" has a certain ring to it. The other beautiful aspect of it is that the real subtext of both the metaphor and the reality is "MY grits / faith please me and therefore would not displease anyone else unless they are just being contrary and obstinate".
Yep. You get this every time "Oh...you were never a Real Christian".
What is a "Real Christian?" (n.b not a "True Christian" which has to do with what colour the car is) it is one who hasn't left the faith yet.
It's cognitive dissonance. The idea that someone could be a tried and true believer and then not be is a disquieting thought; if it can happen to us than it could potentially happen to them, too. It's so much easier to chalk it up to being "angry with god" or not really being a true believer, etc.
I remember during my slow deconversion (I love what Mordant calls it: fade to black) I remember grasping at any possible way to reignite that flame. I'd pick up different bible translation, hoping that maybe looking at it with a fresh perspective would do the trick. And exploring different denominations. And studying apologetics. When that didn't work, I turned to self-medicating to distract myself. Either way, I didn't go down without a fight. Finally just letting go was an incredibly freeing experience.
My wife and I revisited the topic and she understands and then she does not understand, but oddly enough, she is not the only one and some of the others are interestingly enough, the new generation of Christians at my old church. Even back when, 30 years ago, when I was in my original church, my generation was already pushing the envelope, but today, I'm finding out that things we were prohibited from doing ("because the bible said so") are allowed now. Women can now wear makeup. Not encouraged, but allowed. They can wear pants when the weather gets cold or on church trips and non church related gatherings. I believe divorce is now allowed along with remarriage if it can be proven the marriage is abusive or that it common knowledge that infidelity is going on. There are some other allowances, but cannot recall them now.
So, when this younger generation hear that some of the older members still in the church are still stuck in KNOWN "bad marriages," they are at a loss because in their mind and their world, they are not going to deal with that. Unlike us, they are a lot less likely to get married at 18, 21, 23 or even 27. They are dumbfounded too that seemingly "intelligent" people cannot recognize a mess of a marriage.
It truly is an interesting thing. While I don't beat myself up daily, there are times when I look back at my life and wished my decision was not made with "faith" in mind. Heck, the trend I am seeing now (on Facebook) would have been even better. Many of my old high school and neighborhood friends lived their lives to the fullest in their teens and much of their adult lives. They never used to want to hear my preaching to them back then. Now in their 40s and older, probably having a more acute sense of their mortality, many of them are card carrying Christians OR at least, keeping "God" closer to the vest "just in case." They got the sex in, the fun, the traveling, the partying and now, it's time to settle down, find love and praise the lord.
It's cognitive dissonance. The idea that someone could be a tried and true believer and then not be is a disquieting thought; if it can happen to us than it could potentially happen to them, too. It's so much easier to chalk it up to being "angry with god" or not really being a true believer, etc.
I remember during my slow deconversion (I love what Mordant calls it: fade to black) I remember grasping at any possible way to reignite that flame. I'd pick up different bible translation, hoping that maybe looking at it with a fresh perspective would do the trick. And exploring different denominations. And studying apologetics. When that didn't work, I turned to self-medicating to distract myself. Either way, I didn't go down without a fight. Finally just letting go was an incredibly freeing experience.
Bingo. It is so upsetting to believers to even entertain the mere thought that THEY could ever possibly fall away from their faith (I am speaking from personal experience) that they must tell themselves that ANYone who ever "falls away" was simply never a real Christian in the first place. I get that, 100%. That was my mentality too.
I can definitely relate to your slow deconversion. Like you, I tried so hard to keep believing. It was a terrifying time, a direction I did not want to go. The last year or two that I still attended our fundie bible church, I was aware that I was faking it, but I so deeply wanted to recover my faith. It just never came back. Rationality had won out, and there was no turning back.
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