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Again Mystic, this is STATE RUN LODGING. The sooner you get that through your head, the sooner you can join the conversation with the adults. If this were a PRIVATELY OWNED hotel, no one would say anything. This is not hard to understand. The GOVT can not be seen to be favoring one religion over the other. It really is that simple.
Again, these are not privately owned hotels. These are STATE RUN, which means, the STATE is the one running it. The state can not be seen as favoring Christianity. You are allowed to express your religion all you want, as long as you aren't doing so as a government entity, a government employee that has a captive audience (such as a teacher), or something similar. Not hard to understand.
Favoring Christianity would mean the state run hotel is refusing all other religious texts except for the Bible. You got proof that is occuring? Allowing something to exist in your physical space doesn't mean you favor or even approve of it.
Favoring Christianity would mean the state run hotel is refusing all other religious texts except for the Bible. You got proof that is occuring? Allowing something to exist in your physical space doesn't mean you favor or even approve of it.
The sooner you get it through your head that this is a marketplace enterprise. Ownership is irrelevant! The State-Owned enterprise is ALLOWING the free expression of religion in the PUBLIC marketplace. There is no government doing anything to any religion. The appropriate environmental context is the free marketplace because that is where the lodging is operating. It is NOT operating in a governmental capacity, period. If we don't clarify these boundaries for the zealous morons who cannot seem to recognize common sense boundaries in their extreme desire to eradicate religious expression, they will just continue to cause trouble where none is needed. There is no heinous violation of anything here! Grow up and get a grip.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Favoring Christianity would mean the state run hotel is refusing all other religious texts except for the Bible. You got proof that is occuring? Allowing something to exist in your physical space doesn't mean you favor or even approve of it.
Amen, Jeff. I agree with you on this, but with an important caveat. The space must NOT be used primarily for governmental purposes, as in this case. Lodgings perform no governmental purpose and should not be subject to any stupid prohibitions pretending that they do just because of who OWNS them.
Favoring Christianity would mean the state run hotel is refusing all other religious texts except for the Bible. You got proof that is occuring? Allowing something to exist in your physical space doesn't mean you favor or even approve of it.
But it can be seen that way. If you see a store that allows KKK flyers to be put up promoting hate marches, what would you think? Would you automatically assume the store owner wants nothing to do with the KKK, or would you assume the owner of the store likes the KKK or those flyers wouldn't be there in the first place? As for state-run hotels refusing all other religious texts except the Bible, you got any proof that it's NOT occurring?
You don't and we don't. But right now the state-run hotels with the Bibles in their rooms are looking just like a store with a KKK flyer up.
Christians have had a good long time running things in the sandbox, but that was only by default because for centuries they were the only kids in town. There are new kids in town now, and not only do you have to move over and allow them to play with your toys, the new kids are going to want to bring their own toys in the sandbox, too. They don't want to play with yours exclusively.
I know it's difficult to accept, but you are not and never have been the owner of the sandbox, though you may have felt like it. You thought you ruled the whole country and all of a sudden you're finding out you don't. I get it, that's a hard thing to have happen. But having to share the country with other religions and not having things all your own way anymore is not you being persecuted.
Trust me on this. Christians in the US aren't even close to being persecuted. Their churches aren't being torn down, your religious leaders aren't being shot, you aren't in prison, and your Bibles aren't being burned. And if your faith is so weak that it can't share the sandbox with other religions, then you have a bigger problem than a few Bibles. You either have your religion inside you or you don't have it at all.
But it can be seen that way. If you see a store that allows KKK flyers to be put up promoting hate marches, what would you think? Would you automatically assume the store owner wants nothing to do with the KKK, or would you assume the owner of the store likes the KKK or those flyers wouldn't be there in the first place? As for state-run hotels refusing all other religious texts except the Bible, you got any proof that it's NOT occurring?
You don't and we don't. But right now the state-run hotels with the Bibles in their rooms are looking just like a store with a KKK flyer up.
Wow, talk about an argument of desperation. You always have to go back to racism to prop up an argument. It's not the same thing. Would a flyer for Pizza Hut mean that the hotel only supports Pizza Hut? A KKK flyer is different because it automatically conveys such a message of hate just from the name of the organization so a person would naturally associate a business with that message.
I thought you can't prove a negative. It's YOUR claim that the state run hotel is favoring Christianity. The only way you can make that claim is to prove that the Holy Bible is the only text accepted there. I have no doubt that if a Muslim pressured the issue, the state run hotel would provide the Quran to avoid a lawsuit.
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Originally Posted by rodentraiser
Christians have had a good long time running things in the sandbox, but that was only by default because for centuries they were the only kids in town. There are new kids in town now, and not only do you have to move over and allow them to play with your toys, the new kids are going to want to bring their own toys in the sandbox, too. They don't want to play with yours exclusively.
I know it's difficult to accept, but you are not and never have been the owner of the sandbox, though you may have felt like it. You thought you ruled the whole country and all of a sudden you're finding out you don't. I get it, that's a hard thing to have happen. But having to share the country with other religions and not having things all your own way anymore is not you being persecuted.
Trust me on this. Christians in the US aren't even close to being persecuted. Their churches aren't being torn down, your religious leaders aren't being shot, you aren't in prison, and your Bibles aren't being burned. And if your faith is so weak that it can't share the sandbox with other religions, then you have a bigger problem than a few Bibles. You either have your religion inside you or you don't have it at all.
Persecution even on a minor level is still persecution. Church burnings, imprisonment, murder doesn't happen over night. It is progressive. The Jews in Poland were not taken to death camps immediately in WW2. It was a progression stripping away of their rights. Eventually we will get to were it is illegal to own a Bible.
Wow, talk about an argument of desperation. You always have to go back to racism to prop up an argument. It's not the same thing. Would a flyer for Pizza Hut mean that the hotel only supports Pizza Hut? A KKK flyer is different because it automatically conveys such a message of hate just from the name of the organization so a person would naturally associate a business with that message.
...
Persecution even on a minor level is still persecution. Church burnings, imprisonment, murder doesn't happen over night. It is progressive. The Jews in Poland were not taken to death camps immediately in WW2. It was a progression stripping away of their rights. Eventually we will get to were it is illegal to own a Bible.
I agree the the KKK comparison doesn't fit but banning the bible is a bad thing how? Just kidding.
I don't live in the US and I don't use your government owned hotels and I don't really want to see a bible in a rented room but I don't think the group who are making a fuss over the bibles are justified. I would consider them to be part of the lunatic fringe.
Why on earth would an Atheist even be looking in the top drawer? No actually, why would he/she care? Are they afraid of this book or something? It's not going to damn well bite them! Harden up already. Get over it. It's only a book! (Usually printed on high quality paper).
The fundamental reality that Dominionists refuse to acknowledge was clearly outlined by the Supreme Court in its decision in Lee v. Weisman:
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The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy.
This principle is not limited to schools. This principle applies to the operations of government wherever there is a loss of even intangible benefits that someone is otherwise entitled to but must sacrifice to avoid participating or contributing to a religion. (Its applicability to privately-owned companies is generally restricted to where government patronage of the company's products and services is substantial.)
Even when Dominionists win Supreme Court cases the decisions or concurring opinions make clear where the line is: In Lynch v. Donnelly it is made clear that it is an infringement is government endorsement or disapproval of religion. Allowing one religion to place religious texts and not allowing all other religions that wish to do so is an infringement. A penny of state budget spent to put religious texts into rooms is an infringement. Allowing the Bibles to be placed sends the message that the state endorses the religion, and that's un-American.
Wow, talk about an argument of desperation. You always have to go back to racism to prop up an argument. It's not the same thing. Would a flyer for Pizza Hut mean that the hotel only supports Pizza Hut? A KKK flyer is different because it automatically conveys such a message of hate just from the name of the organization so a person would naturally associate a business with that message.
Perhaps using KKK as an example was searching for a group that you would reject, but that isn't the point. The point is that, if you see a shop with a Star of David or a Chakra wheel or - as happened in my street recently - a house with the flag of Pakistan hung in the window - you wouldn't say 'Well that isn't making a statement about religious or cultural affiliation and preference. They could hang up any other flag". You cannot use the 'well, they could put any book in there' argument. A Gideon Bible on Government property is making a statement of religious preference (and whether intentional or not is irrelevant) and that is counter to US Government policy on separation of church and state.
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I thought you can't prove a negative. It's YOUR claim that the state run hotel is favoring Christianity. The only way you can make that claim is to prove that the Holy Bible is the only text accepted there. I have no doubt that if a Muslim pressured the issue, the state run hotel would provide the Quran to avoid a lawsuit.
That's why groups interested in separation of church and state pick up on these ploys and put atheist tracts in the satchel or wear pirate hats in class or put up statues of Bahomet next to a 10 commandments monument. Unless the Bible is removed I would expect that should be what they should do, just to see what happens. Ideally we should have: "In *(insert you god here)* we trust" on the dollar. I can just hear your screams if the Magic Word was removed.
"If we can't mention God ion the dollar how long before people are jailed, burned and shot for even saying "God"?'
In fact, I can read them.
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Persecution even on a minor level is still persecution. Church burnings, imprisonment, murder doesn't happen over night. It is progressive. The Jews in Poland were not taken to death camps immediately in WW2. It was a progression stripping away of their rights. Eventually we will get to were it is illegal to own a Bible.
Now that is an example of a slippery slope argument that is a fallacy. Once Christianity is removed from its position of undue influence on society, nobody will care whether you have a Bible or not. I won't even mention the immediate leap to example from Hitler
To use your example to prove our point, erosion of the separation of church and state is still erosion of the separation of church and state. Getting 'In god we trust' on state vehicles, organized prayers in school, teaching Genesis in the science classs, declaring atheists non -citizens doesn't happen over night. It is progressive. The Jews in Poland (and elsewhere) were not taken to death camps immediately in WW2. It was a progression beginning with apparently democratic means using 'democracy' and the will of the people for the rights of one Dogma to be imposed on everyone and anyone who did not toe the line would end up in a camp. And as Jews were particularly an object of persecution, Jeff, we atheists would be the principal candidates (see former president and founder of al Quaida (1) George Bush quotes on the subject) for abrogation of all rights, liberty and the freedom to exist.
So what religion is the government "marketing" in this case?
It's displaying Christian marketing material in the rooms. Do the math.
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Completely different thing. The Bible actually talks about the Trinity, and we can derive it from Biblical texts. The Constitution, on the other hand explicitly states what the Federal government can and can't do.
And? Doesn't change the fact that both are examples of well-founded ideas that aren't specifically named in their respective texts.
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Because it's not the law. The chief tactic of the liberal left for years has been to find an activist judge to create law where there was none.
You'd figure after 2+ generations the far right would be able to find at least one sympathetic judge to overturn all of that illegal activism. Funny that they can't seem to find anyone in the entire court system to agree with them. Wonder why that is.
Last edited by KCfromNC; 11-21-2015 at 06:04 AM..
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