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Old 12-02-2015, 08:41 AM
 
Location: USA
18,417 posts, read 9,024,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Sin introduced death into a world that was once perfect. The perfect world will one day be restored when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.
That's not what you said earlier. Earlier you said that the Christian God made our bodies to be durable but not immortal. That would seem like a design flaw, and not perfection.
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Old 12-02-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,062,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
I'll make sure I let some of my Inuit friends know that their fathers could not have survived in the Arctic without technology. Or their grandfather before that. Or their great great grandfather. For generations going back thousands of years.
Technology doesn't mean access to space heaters and computers. A spear is a form of technology. Inuits have survived in the arctic with that sort of technology. Humans learned how to hunt then use an animal pelt as clothing to keep them warm. The Inuits would not have survived without that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Ok, so now natural selection has nothing to do retaining superior traits. That's the problem with broad based statements like yours. You can morph it to cover up the gaping holes here. Nothing you said explains specifically to me why humans evolved with features that are less suitable for survival.
Evolution doesn't have an opinion on what superior is. Ants vastly outnumber humans. How is this possible when ants are clearly weaker than humans? Well, for one thing, they aren't really competitors, and for another, "weaker" is subjective. Ants can disappear in a field of short grass. Can humans? Does this make ants superior?

Evolution is about what survives. Presumably, what survives has the superior combination of traits. It doesn't necessarily mean each trait is superior, which is a subjective thing anyway. I've said this multiple times. You've ignored it multiple times. I have a feeling I know why.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
No, you are making a claim without having all the required knowledge. Who knows, from a designer perspective, placing the testicles in another location may cause more issues. It's like the argument that God really screwed up by playing the eating tube right next to the breathing tube. Of course, the skeptics are pretty quiet when you ask them specifically where they would place the tube at instead.
Isn't the implication that God is perfect? All knowing and all powerful? Why did he design testicles in such a way that they had to be there? I've heard that all is possible with God from believers. Why are balls excluded?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
That's like saying a car has a bad design because it got a flat tire. Any problems that arise even if they are a result of our own bad behavior is a design flaw, huh?

We live in a fallen world where sin introduced death and disease. God designed the body to give us a fighting chance but not to be physically immortal which is apparently the standard that you are demanding here. That's not design flaw. That's a design with a purpose.
How are things like a disease the result of our own poor decision? God had to have made bacteria and viruses in order for them to exist, correct? Even if you want to believe the story where we ALL die because two people messed up (I can just feel the love), why are things like disease our fault if we didn't make disease? Hell, we were designed with the assumption that we WOULDN'T die! You say we're designed to survive the best, but we weren't even designed with the assumption that survival would be a thing. We would just ride around on dinosaurs and eat carrots or whatever crazy, scientifically impossible thing people believe.

And no one is demanding a standard of immortality. Just a consistent standard. Humans were made before 'the fall' which means we were built to be immortal. Adam and Eve ate some fruit from a tree that God made exist for some reason and then had to make is possible for us to die. This implies that God can change our purpose on a whim, which is pretty huge. It also suggests that it was absolutely within the realm of possibility for him to put testicles in a more secure place without it killing the sperm, which he also made. Unless human also didn't feel pain before the fall.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:35 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,855,696 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
That's not what you said earlier. Earlier you said that the Christian God made our bodies to be durable but not immortal. That would seem like a design flaw, and not perfection.
Freak80 is correct. God created Adam fleshly and soulish. Since God does not just see the end from the beginning, He "declares the end from the beginning" (Isa 46:10), and so He knew far in advance what making Adam flesh and soulish would accomplish:

Romans 8:7-8 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." (8) Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

God knew when He laid down the law in the garden: "Thou shalt not eat of . . ." that Adam would not be subject to that law and was not able to please God.

And God made Adam soulish on purpose knowing full well in advance that:

1Co_2:14 "Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

And so when writing concerning Adam, the apostle Paul stated this:

1 Corinthians 15:45-46 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

So God made Adam so he would not be able to receive those things of the spirit of God.

Why?

So Adam would sin, so death would enter into Adam and progeny, so humanity would learn from the knowledge of good and evil, so that there would be need of a Saviour.

Since God is all knowing and all wise, testicles prove His knowledge and wisdom.
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:45 AM
 
10,065 posts, read 5,671,494 times
Reputation: 2872
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post


Evolution doesn't have an opinion on what superior is. Ants vastly outnumber humans. How is this possible when ants are clearly weaker than humans? Well, for one thing, they aren't really competitors, and for another, "weaker" is subjective. Ants can disappear in a field of short grass. Can humans? Does this make ants superior?
Sorry but you can't have it both ways. You can't tell me evolution is mindless and random yet tell me it select traits that have a better chance at survival. Then tell me it is subjective. You need some loose definitions to get out of explaining to me why humans would evolve with weaker traits like no thick pads on our bare feet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post


Isn't the implication that God is perfect? All knowing and all powerful? Why did he design testicles in such a way that they had to be there? I've heard that all is possible with God from believers. Why are balls excluded?
Hey why did God design testicles at all? Why did He make our bodies dependent on blood? Why not make our bones out of indestructible metal or just make us like a thick solid jelly. You could spend all day doing these second guesses but the bottom line is unless you have the same supreme knowledge of God then it is arrogant to question his blue print. There is a purpose and reason for His design. There are countless functions of the human body that it does amazing well and shows intelligent design. And unlike every other freaking species on the planet, God made human beings to be unique physical creations. That's why we have hundreds of different facial features, lips, noses, eyes, brow, ears, hair color and shape, the list goes on and on.. But you will ignore those and focus on a few handful that appear as flaws on the surface.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post

How are things like a disease the result of our own poor decision? God had to have made bacteria and viruses in order for them to exist, correct? Even if you want to believe the story where we ALL die because two people messed up (I can just feel the love), why are things like disease our fault if we didn't make disease? Hell, we were designed with the assumption that we WOULDN'T die! You say we're designed to survive the best, but we weren't even designed with the assumption that survival would be a thing. We would just ride around on dinosaurs and eat carrots or whatever crazy, scientifically impossible thing people believe.
Everything God makes is good. There are good bacteria that serves a purpose. Sin brought a curse onto this world which created things like bad bacteria and disease. If a child goes out and murders someone, do you blame the mother for having brought the child into this world? In a fallen world, we certainly are designed with the assumption that we will die. Our cells don't regenerate perfectly so we are all on a certain timeline cycle of birth and death. Exactly the same cycle seen all throughout nature even with the four seasons. There's your evidence of a perfect God. Everything works in perfect cycles in this world from the rising sun to the falling leaf.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post

And no one is demanding a standard of immortality. Just a consistent standard. Humans were made before 'the fall' which means we were built to be immortal. Adam and Eve ate some fruit from a tree that God made exist for some reason and then had to make is possible for us to die. This implies that God can change our purpose on a whim, which is pretty huge. It also suggests that it was absolutely within the realm of possibility for him to put testicles in a more secure place without it killing the sperm, which he also made. Unless human also didn't feel pain before the fall.
Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall, but sin is death and that put a curse on man. That curse made us mortal and susceptible to the many dangers in this world. That is just simply reality. Nothing good ever comes from sin. Look at all the people who indulge in sexual sin. There is almost always some consequence to their actions whether it is destroyed marriages, careers, stds, unwanted pregnancies etc....
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: USA
18,417 posts, read 9,024,439 times
Reputation: 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Sorry but you can't have it both ways. You can't tell me evolution is mindless and random yet tell me it select traits that have a better chance at survival. Then tell me it is subjective. You need some loose definitions to get out of explaining to me why humans would evolve with weaker traits like no thick pads on our bare feet.




Hey why did God design testicles at all? Why did He make our bodies dependent on blood? Why not make our bones out of indestructible metal or just make us like a thick solid jelly. You could spend all day doing these second guesses but the bottom line is unless you have the same supreme knowledge of God then it is arrogant to question his blue print. There is a purpose and reason for His design. There are countless functions of the human body that it does amazing well and shows intelligent design. And unlike every other freaking species on the planet, God made human beings to be unique physical creations. That's why we have hundreds of different facial features, lips, noses, eyes, brow, ears, hair color and shape, the list goes on and on.. But you will ignore those and focus on a few handful that appear as flaws on the surface.





Everything God makes is good. There are good bacteria that serves a purpose. Sin brought a curse onto this world which created things like bad bacteria and disease. If a child goes out and murders someone, do you blame the mother for having brought the child into this world? In a fallen world, we certainly are designed with the assumption that we will die. Our cells don't regenerate perfectly so we are all on a certain timeline cycle of birth and death. Exactly the same cycle seen all throughout nature even with the four seasons. There's your evidence of a perfect God. Everything works in perfect cycles in this world from the rising sun to the falling leaf.




Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall, but sin is death and that put a curse on man. That curse made us mortal and susceptible to the many dangers in this world. That is just simply reality. Nothing good ever comes from sin. Look at all the people who indulge in sexual sin. There is almost always some consequence to their actions whether it is destroyed marriages, careers, stds, unwanted pregnancies etc....
Yeah, that's the twisted belief system I was force-fed as well. It's neither intellectually defensible nor healthy.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:12 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,859,934 times
Reputation: 4559
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Sin introduced death into a world that was once perfect. The perfect world will one day be restored when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.
Guess your christ gets a redo then? Apparently he screwed up the first time he came.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:19 AM
 
Location: USA
18,417 posts, read 9,024,439 times
Reputation: 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Guess your christ gets a redo then? Apparently he screwed up the first time he came.
Christ 1.0 was the beta version.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
897 posts, read 1,244,419 times
Reputation: 1366
Yea I'm not going to look at 11 pages of petty arguments the reason testicles are on the outside is because heat kills sperm. Being on the outside the testicles allows them to stay cooler than our body temperature does encouraging sperm growth and strength. Testicles needs to be below internal body temperature for optimal sperm production and storage. Of course evolution didn't take into account clothing which traps body heat.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:25 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,855,696 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Guess your christ gets a redo then? Apparently he screwed up the first time he came.
Actually He didn't screw up. And yes, all creation will be a new creation in Christ. At that point in time all will be immortal and incorruptible.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:31 AM
 
10,065 posts, read 5,671,494 times
Reputation: 2872
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Guess your christ gets a redo then? Apparently he screwed up the first time he came.
Man screwed it up. We're good at that.
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