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Nope they are bible thumping fundies or "born again" types. Then throw in the people who are lost souls and down on their luck due to bad life choices.
No they blabber the exact things that you blabber.
No most are sickened by evil. Anyone who needs evil to be humbled is a flawed human.
Your logic is flawed. According to your logic we would see a humbled humanity...that is the last thing we see.
I guess you call anyone a bully who stands up to your nonsensical babble. Sadly that's the best defense you can come up with...but it does not surprise me in the least.
Anyone like you can say what you say without facts. You are nothing but a cyber bully.
Why don't you bully someone else?
If you can't post something pertinent to the thread, please desist.
Okay, let me rephrase it. Man needs to see they are incapable of pleasing God in their current makeup. Man needs to have a knowledge of good and evil. Why? Because they need to experience both in order to truly appreciate the good.
It is not that He just needed an Adam and an Eve but He considered it a loving thing to bring about billions and billions of humans. We don't know the full scope of why but there are hints.
What greater good is being served by A & E understanding good and evil? Whyou not just make them with that knowledge already?
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It is my understanding that since God is love, that love desires love's response.
Wouldn't you define love a characteristic of love as putting the benefit of othera before your own benefit? How could we know that is the case if this god doesn't reveal his greater plan?
And sacrificing your son, when you are the most capable being in (and out of) the universe and can simply make a new one doesn't work for me.
Yes it has been cast out of Heaven. Jesus said He saw it fall from Heaven and
cast down to Earth. It is strange that you might think the Devil is still in Heaven.
I recollect arguing this with you 1-2 years ago. From what you would derive that
Satan is in Heaven, while otherwise being somewhat sound is quite odd.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Concerning Luke 10:18 and the Lord seeing Satan come down:
"The Lord had not specifically empowered the disciples for this world. Under these circumstances they had
much cause to rejoice at the power in their possession. The Lord, being in intimate touch with the spirit
world, had noted that its head had come down, no doubt at a signal of distress from his minions. This, of
course, has no connection with the so-called "fall of Satan", of which we never read in the Scriptures, but has
reference to Satan's action in response to their ejection of demons in Christ's name. Knowing the power of
the enemy, and what He and His disciples would yet suffer at his hands, our Lord seeks to put their joy on a
more secure footing. Indeed, unless their names are engraven in heaven, and thus under the protection of
the Almighty, these spiritual powers over which they are triumphing, will try them beyond endurance" (Concordant Commentary).
You have to keep what Jesus said in context:
Luke 10:17-20 Now the seventy-two return with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Thy name!" (18) Yet He
said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven." (19) Lo! I have given you authority to be treading upon
serpents and scorpions and over the entire power of the enemy, and nothing shall be injuring you under any circumstances." (20)
However, in this be not rejoicing, that the spirits are subject to you, yet be rejoicing that your names are engraven in the heavens."
Adolph Knoch's "Concordant Commentary" is heretical toilet paper.
His writings have no more validity than any other random person.
How dare he take the plain words of Christ and twist them into
his own faulty judgement ! Worthless. The Catholic commentary
leaves it open and says it could mean either present-tense or
past-tense. Many past theologians thought He meant past tense.
There are problems with Knoch. I do not respect him. A Gathering in Christ - A.E. Knoch's Errors in Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Ernst_Knoch
Regardless, it is untenable for any Christian or even Jew or Muslim
to believe that the Devil is in Heaven as you say.
That is so fundamentally wrong I refuse to even talk about it.
It is plainly against all Biblical and Apostolic teaching. Never mind
teaching, it is against all accumulated supernatural events and
is downright blind ignorance reeking of Satanic possession to believe the Devil is in Heaven.
The Devil is HERE, not in Heaven, and not even in Hell yet.
Eusebius, it seems to me that a fair summary of your beliefs stated here in this thread, is that whatever happens in a given situation is either caused or allowed by god, and therefore, approved by god as the best for all concerned in the long run. Or put another way, god is in complete control of all events that occur in each person't life and works all of them in accordance with his will. No exceptions, including things we humans would reasonably consider harms, suffering, grief, loss, etc. At the very least, any harm will be more than made up at some future time.
If the above is unfair or mistaken, stop me right here, okay? But it seems to me that you have been pretty clear on these matters.
If I am correct in my summary, it seems to me that moral concerns cannot apply to god, nor does he abide by the requirements he sets for us. Most obviously, it is wrong for us to do evil that good may come of it, but okay for god. But also, if everything that occurs, no matter how glorious or heinous ... whether we experience complete fulfillment of all hopes dreams and aspirations or die of interminable torture in some gulag ... if all of that is the will of god simply because it occurred, then there is no basis to say, now wait a minute -- you tell me to do good to all who are of the household of faith, but why aren't you doing good to Joe or Betty or Sam here? You tell me to be merciful to those who despitefully use me but here you are torturing poor Shirina. Double standard much?
Basically I can't see how morality is relevant to your god. He doesn't follow the morals he is alleged to have authored ... at least not unless he thinks it's expedient to do so. Given the amount of emphasis most Christians place on morality and how we fall short of "god's perfect standard" -- you'd think it'd be one he would make himself just as accountable to as anyone else. Otherwise he is no different than someone demanding prudishness and virginity, and then taking liberty with your daughter, because he can. Or standing by while someone else does.
Further I don't see how god could get the glory he craves from this. How can anyone even judge him positively if whatever random things happen are his will? How would one even KNOW his will? Or care about it, if nothing contrary to it can happen anyway?
You seem to be taking us into a Kafkaesque epistemological wasteland where right and wrong, truth and lies, have no meaning.
How can god be acclaimed as good, holy, and just if we can't see that he is good, holy and just -- if his justice is indistinguishable from background random happenstance?
Where are you actually going with this "whatever happens, it's obviously god's will" business? Are you sure you don't want to rethink or qualify it somehow? Because it's starting to remind me of the old saw, "god always answers prayer -- yes, no, or not right now" -- which means prayer is meaningless because answers are the same as random odds of anything happening. You are rendering morality and god's character meaningless.
Eusebius, it seems to me that a fair summary of your beliefs stated here in this thread, is that whatever happens in a given situation is either caused or allowed by God, and therefore, approved by God as the best for all concerned in the long run. Or put another way, God is in complete control of all events that occur in each person't life and works all of them in accordance with his will. No exceptions, including things we humans would reasonably consider harms, suffering, grief, loss, etc. At the very least, any harm will be more than made up at some future time.
If the above is unfair or mistaken, stop me right here, okay? But it seems to me that you have been pretty clear on these matters.
If I am correct in my summary, it seems to me that moral concerns cannot apply to God, nor does he abide by the requirements he sets for us. Most obviously, it is wrong for us to do evil that good may come of it, but okay for God. But also, if everything that occurs, no matter how glorious or heinous ... whether we experience complete fulfillment of all hopes dreams and aspirations or die of interminable torture in some gulag ... if all of that is the will of God simply because it occurred, then there is no basis to say, now wait a minute -- you tell me to do good to all who are of the household of faith, but why aren't you doing good to Joe or Betty or Sam here? You tell me to be merciful to those who despitefully use me but here you are torturing poor Shirina. Double standard much?
No, not double standards.
Paul tells the believer: "Gal_6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."
I have not tortured poor Shirina. How dare you accuse me of torturing her.
And how have I not done good to Joe or Betty or Sam here? Please inform us.
Of course it is wrong for us to do evil that good may come because we are not God and cannot be sure that good will come of some evil we may do! Only God is capable of knowing full well that by His actions good will come. Therefore it is not a double standard for God to tell us believers not to do evil that good may come.
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Basically I can't see how morality is relevant to your God. He doesn't follow the morals he is alleged to have authored ... at least not unless he thinks it's expedient to do so. Given the amount of emphasis most Christians place on morality and how we fall short of "God's perfect standard" -- you'd think it'd be one he would make himself just as accountable to as anyone else. Otherwise he is no different than someone demanding prudishness and virginity, and then taking liberty with your daughter, because he can. Or standing by while someone else does.
And just who made you the final arbiter of all that is true and fair and just? Just how did God take liberty with my daughter? Of course God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens on this earth. Weak and fallible man is not responsible in the ultimate sense. In a relative sense man is responsible. He has responsibilities to perform in a relative sense. You see, you, and those of your persuasion, take what you perceive to be a worst case scenario and shove it in my face as if to cast God in the worst possible light. Yet, and I have brought this up over and over again, you and those like you, fail to see the forest for the trees. You fail to see that God is working all together for GOOD. Since everyone who ever was on the receiving end of evil in this life is not going to accuse God of wrong doing in the future, why are you now accusing Him of wrong doing? of being a hypocrite? of having a double standard?
But God has authorities on this earth who don't wear the sword for naught. Such people who do evil will pay the heavy price in accord with their evil. Both of these are of God. Man needs to experience what it is to do evil and what it is like to be on the receiving end of the law.
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Further I don't see how God could get the glory he craves from this. How can anyone even judge him positively if whatever random things happen are his will? How would one even KNOW his will? Or care about it, if nothing contrary to it can happen anyway?
Of course some things can occur contrary to His will but even that is according to His intention. No one has or ever will withstand His intention.
I can just as easily state: How can God get any glory if everything that happens in this life is out of His control? If it is not in His control then He is out of control of His universe and is no longer God. There is no such things as "random things happen." God is not into chance. He is into control. God doesn't hold the gun that shoots the innocent person. An evil person shoots the gun. But what caused the evil person to shoot the gun? Maybe spiritual forces of wickedness? Maybe another person caused him to pull the trigger? Maybe the shooter is mentally incapable of knowing right from wrong? There are so many things which could be the cause. However the buck ultimately stops with God. He knows how much time we have on this earth and when that time is up, it's up. Yet the shooter will experience the long arm of the law. And both in the end will experience God's resurrection to immortality and incorruption. You find something sinister in that. I see it as glorious. The two, the shooter and the shot will not complain to God in that far off day.
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You seem to be taking us into a Kafkaesque epistemological wasteland where right and wrong, truth and lies, have no meaning.
You seem to not get what I am saying.
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How can God be acclaimed as good, holy, and just if we can't see that he is good, holy and just -- if his justice is indistinguishable from background random happenstance?
It is background random happenstance to you because you think that is what it is. Where in the Scriptures does it call Judas giving up Christ a random happenstance. The Bible says Judas was born for that and that it was prophesied to happen many many years before Judas was born. Yet you don't see Peter shying away from such a truth.
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Where are you actually going with this "whatever happens, it's obviously God's will" business? Are you sure you don't want to rethink or qualify it somehow? Because it's starting to remind me of the old saw, "God always answers prayer -- yes, no, or not right now"
But I don't believe God always answers prayer. I don't pray to have my prayers answered but pray to align my will with God's will. If God granted me all my prayers, you'd be believing by now.
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-- which means prayer is meaningless because answers are the same as random odds of anything happening. You are rendering morality and God's character meaningless.
No, it doesn't mean prayer is meaningless. Prayer is to align our will with God's. It is you who are rendering morality and God's character meaningless.
Also, Snowball7, do you pray to Mary and dead saints?
Did you know according to ecclesiastical Catholic law that they are beholden to take the majority of belief of the church fathers and determine what is the truth? According to the majority of the ante-Nicene and post Nicene fathers, the understanding of "on this rock I will build my church" was the truth Peter said Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God? Only a minority said the rock was Peter. And yet the RCC goes with the minority on that issue thus breaking their own ecclesiastical law?
Do you pray the Our Father as if it applies to you? Do you believe if you don't forgive men their trespasses God won't forgive you?
Eusebius, you make a very good point here that, for me, sums up what I find repellant and immoral about your view of God.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Of course some things can occur contrary to His will but even that is according to His intention. No one has or ever will withstand His intention.
I can just as easily state: How can God get any glory if everything that happens in this life is out of His control? If it is not in His control then He is out of control of His universe and is no longer God. There is no such things as "random things happen." God is not into chance. He is into control. God doesn't hold the gun that shoots the innocent person. An evil person shoots the gun. But what caused the evil person to shoot the gun? Maybe spiritual forces of wickedness? Maybe another person caused him to pull the trigger? Maybe the shooter is mentally incapable of knowing right from wrong? There are so many things which could be the cause. However the buck ultimately stops with God. He knows how much time we have on this earth and when that time is up, it's up. Yet the shooter will experience the long arm of the law. And both in the end will experience God's resurrection to immortality and incorruption. You find something sinister in that. I see it as glorious. The two, the shooter and the shot will not complain to God in that far off day.
(emphasis mine)
This is the problem.
If I hire a hitman to kill someone, I am equally culpable. I am every bit as guilty as the actual killer. If a "made man" blows up a rival in a gang war, and is executed, but the Don remains unpunished, we regard that as a miscarriage of justice, a failure of our legal system to match what is morally right. We as human beings instinctually understand that fault and credit lie as much with the originator of an action as with the proximate cause.
Thus if God is ultimately and absolutely responsible for everything that happens, then he bears and equal part of guilt as those who actually "sin". If it is a sin, if guilt and blame accrue to a man for killing his spouse, then God bears at a minimum an equal portion of blame and "sin" as the actual culprit. If God is in complete control, then He bears all the sin, the man had no real option, he could not do otherwise.
So in essence you are arguing that a God who literally punishes every human being (and every other living thing! death, pain, and suffering are not limited to man!) for His own actions and choices is somehow good and just, simply becasue he does not inflict eternal punishment. Instead he inflicts temporary pain, suffering, and punishment and then strips the free will of mankind and literally forces them, regardless of their will or choice, to experience unending, unchanging happiness. I know you seem to feel that it makes up for it all, but to me it makes it that much worse!
Here is what you describe:
God intentionally makes creations, and these creations are under his complete and absolute control.
God uses his complete and absolute control over His own creation to force them to fall short of an arbitrary standard (which he does not hold himself to)
God then punishes this utterly choiceless creation, which cannot do other than what He intends, with sickness, sadness, pain, and death for doing what He himself desired them to do.
Some of God's creations will continue to be punished after their death, for doing the things and making the choices which God intended them to make in the first place, albeit this punishment is temporary.
Then at the end, in a sort of cosmic Stockholm Syndrome, God will force all creation to love him, to be grateful for being punished for His actions, and to be happy and content in the knowledge of their utter lack of freedom, self determination, and will.
And somehow, this describes love and care to you...
If this were a person doing this, we would probably demand that they were executed summarily. It is inhuman, and not in a good way! There is no shred of love, justice, mercy or compassion here. What it resembles more than anything is a narcissistic sociopathic child skinning kittens alive, and beating puppies to a pulp and then demanding that his victims display gratitude that he put some kibble out for them!
If God is ultimately in control, and bear responsibility for everything, then any punishment or consequence for "sin" experienced by any creature other than God is patently unjust, regardless of how mind controlled we might be in the sweet by and by.
-NoCapo
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