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Old 12-11-2015, 02:32 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,890,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored View Post
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have seen today! Eusie saying someone else is using circular reasoning! BWWAAHHHHAAAHAHAHA.
I know, I think my head actually just spun entirely around on my neck.

 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I was trying to get you to see that if you looked forward to what your parents promised, then why think it strange for me for looking forward to what my heavenly Father has promised?
Um, maybe because parents stand right there and speak to and interact with a child, whereas God is an invisible imaginary undefinable something that has no evidence to support it even exists?

Or that's my thinking on the comparison, anyway.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,793 posts, read 13,327,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Nope, sorry, the thread is about evil. I have never said "Goddunnit!" Please refrain from such puerile remarks. I'm trying to have an adult conversation here.
I have also pointed out repeatedly that your arguments about evil and how god and man relate to it are circular. This thread is about your assertions and arguments and if those arguments happen in some ways to be circular it is fair game to point it out, and for you to explain in what way that isn't so.

You are way smarter than to think he literally claimed you used the exact word "Goddunnit". And this is another thing you repeatedly are called on -- obtuseness, seemingly often deliberate. Maybe you think "because god" or "goddunnit" is an unfair reduction of your argument, and you can point out in what way it has more substance than that, but to be honest, I can't see how you would do that because that IS essentially your point. As they used to teach me in Sunday School, "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" is the general point of literalist theology, and I don't see that you're any particular exception to it.

There's just a little more to it than my remembered Sunday School ditty, in reality, though. It's more like "the Bible says it, my belief system interprets it, I subscribe to the interpretation, and then I'm terrified to ever question it because that is the sin of doubt".

Everything ... and I mean EVERYTHING ... that you are asserting in this thread is based on the assumption that the Bible is the word of God AND that you are "rightly dividing" it. Which itself assumes that god (your particular interpretation thereof) exists and is as you say he is, that there is a correct method of translating and interpreting the Bible and deriving theology from it that your tribe just happens to hold the keys to. It is a LOT to expect people to buy into.

I have a book, Eusebius, that says there is a pot of gold buried in your back yard. It is true because the book says it is true. It is the word of Seamus the Leprechaun, the owner of the gold. It says so. Start digging.

Not convinced? Well ... other than the Bible being very old and lots of people in the habit of appealing to it (most often in ways quite at odds in important respects with your own interpretation) that is exactly the situation I'm in when you try to show me from the Bible what God says is so or what his demands on me are, and would I'm sure use the Bible's statements about its own veracity as evidence for same.

But it's worse still. There's no pot of gold to even dig for. If you were preaching the Book of Seamus, you'd say there is just penury and want so that in some glorious postmortem future I will be fabulously wealthy, after I've learned what it is to be in poverty and to be raised from it. As if I can't grasp the concept without direct experience.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:51 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,908,892 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
No, you never "could be," although the fact is, you don't know any more than anyone else does, not even scripturally. You said a "maybe" as a fact, we've established that. That's not so weird or surprising, IMO, though of course the bottom line is: what you wish were a fact still isn't.
No, as a matter of fact, I do know for a fact scripturally.

Quote:
So, moving forward from there...


Oh, now we're deducing even if it isn't scriptural?
You are being silly now.

Quote:
Except when you don't want others to deduce...at which time...deduction is against the rules...we don't SEE that exact word fragment in scripture, so...No wait...NOW we can deduce....
If you have a specific Scripture or two, deduce away.

Quote:
Sorry, Eusie, it is so hard to keep up when you continue to change the rules.
I have changed no rules.


Quote:
Just give me a minute to catch up, I'm taking notes here so as not to get confused at the constant game-changing on your part, I think a flow chart is actually best, BRB.
Okay, I see you are just being silly.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:52 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,908,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Um, maybe because parents stand right there and speak to and interact with a child, whereas God is an invisible imaginary undefinable something that has no evidence to support it even exists?

Or that's my thinking on the comparison, anyway.
Not when the child is in California and the Parent is in New York.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,060,758 times
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As I may have mentioned a time or 20 - coincidentally, all in Eusie threads - you can't have an honest conversation with a dishonest person.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 03:15 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,551,860 times
Reputation: 5664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
no, you know this. The Heavenly Father created the archangel Lucifer which of it's own will
rebelled against Him, was cast out of Heaven, tempted man here on Earth, man fell into sin
and inherited death and struggle. The perversion which made itself Satan was created good,
but chose evil; thus did man when he ate of the forbidden, knowing evil as he did; believing
the liar that "ye shall be as God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Assuming any of this were true (come on), if God created a being that had perversion, and had the capacity to choose evil, and further, was very likely to choose evil over good, then God is still at fault and this creation of perversion as you say, and evil, is directly of God's doing, and was God's desire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Your god had foreknowledge of Satan's future dastardliness and created* him anyway.

What a swell guy your god is!


*Presumably from heavenly dirt since I don't think he got around to creating the earth yet.
JerZ - Nowhere did I say God created a being that had perversion. I said the opposite.
It was the Devil's choice to rebel and it became perverted when it rebelled against God.
Reread my post, conveniently pasted above.
Trout - same.

If God created angels and men without free will, you would say He's a tyrant for
denying free will. But since He created them WITH free will, you're incorrectly
blaming God for the decisions of those creatures whom He endowed with free will.
That's called a double standard.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 03:23 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,890,464 times
Reputation: 26919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not when the child is in California and the Parent is in New York.
Certainly if the child is in California and the parent is in New York.

They can call one another on the phone and hear one another's voice. The child can ask a parent a direct question, and the parent can answer. Literally and directly answer. Not "answer" by a pretty leaf blowing by the child or the child being able to look into the awe-inspiring beauty and innocence of a newborn baby's eyes or something. But an answer, as in: "Dad, I am working on my homework...what is three times five?" and the parent answers in actual words, "Fifteen."

Mordant is right. You play the "deliberately obtuse" game a lot.

Quote:
You are being silly now.
Quote:
Okay, I see you are just being silly.
...and the "I know you are, but what am I?" game.

Is this how you win people's hearts to Jesus? With misrepresentations, childlike rebuttals and pretending you don't understand (IOW, deceit)? Interesting. If only I'd known what your God wanted was this, I'd have learned how to mislead, act like a preschooler and misrepresent a whole lot better. Guess I ought to brush up on those things so I don't go to hell.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,060,758 times
Reputation: 14068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
JerZ - Nowhere did I say God created a being that had perversion. I said the opposite.
It was the Devil's choice to rebel and it became perverted when it rebelled against God.
Reread my post, conveniently pasted above.
Trout - same.

If God created angels and men without free will, you would say He's a tyrant for
denying free will. But since He created them WITH free will, you're incorrectly
blaming God for the decisions of those creatures whom He endowed with free will.
That's called a double standard.
Where did I blame them?

If god created angels and men without free will, angels and men would have no idea they were missing anything.

I blame your silly god. He had foreknowledge of their behaviour and created them anyway.

He's evil. And you worship him.
 
Old 12-11-2015, 03:35 PM
 
30,907 posts, read 32,890,464 times
Reputation: 26919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
JerZ - Nowhere did I say God created a being that had perversion. I said the opposite.
It was the Devil's choice to rebel and it became perverted when it rebelled against God.
Long.

...long...

...looooooooooooooooooong sigh.

Here it is: whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Okay. Great. Got that off my chest.

Now. One more time, for posterity:

If God created everything in the universe including Satan then Satan can not do or be anything that was not created by God. Satan is a product of what God wanted. If God created Satan and everything about Satan and Satan rebelled and became perverted, then God created Satan to be able to - indeed, apparently, to want to - rebel and God created perversion, or there would be no such thing for perversion for Satan to "become."

Dear (no pun intended) God.
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