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Folks, tossing aside all the tapdancing and fast-talking and logic-ing and picking apart and sarcasm and head-smacking (which obviously I've been doing too - I'm not pointing fingers while playing innocent), let's get down to brass tacks here.
Whomever compiled all the various books, papers, and poetry that would eventually become The Bible wrote/organized themselves (it surely wasn't just one person and it wasn't a singular conspiracy or anything, surely, since we're talking about a span of time here) into a corner with their little project.
The thing is, until Biblegod there really hadn't been a religion (as far as we know) where ONLY ONE god ruled; where that god had no competition, no possibility of failure due to the fact of having peers, no opposition of any kind.
But from the very beginning of man's existence, the one true God, the one Who created Adam and Eve, had no competition. It was only after Cain's rebellion against the one true God that his progeny began developing the false gods of wood, stone and metal.
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The problem with such a god was that it had to be "perfect." It must know all, see all and have created everything, down to the last detail, and have the capacity to perform literally any miracle it wanted...ever, under any circumstances.
I see no problem with that.
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So far so good...until thinking people questioned why a god that was perfect would allow negative things to happen (the problem of evil, obviously). Now it had to be: Since God is perfect, it can't be God's fault. It must be man's fault.
It is not that God **allowed** negative things to happen. He built that into the system by Adam and Eve eating of the forbidden fruit to learn the knowledge of good and evil. He purposed the negative things for our ultimate good.
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But if it's man's fault then God doesn't know everything, or he'd have known how "bad" man would turn out to be.
I don't claim it is man's fault in the ultimate sense. In the relative sense, humanly speaking, man can be faulted for disobeying God. But in the ultimate sense, in disobeying God, they actually fulfilled God's hidden intention.
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But God has to know everything. So it can't be that. It must be that God knows in advance which people will succeed and which will fail.
It isn't just that God know's who will succeed or fail, He is the One Who is the Potter Who designs each vessel to be vessels of mercy or vessels of dishonor. After all He it is Who "declares the end from the beginning.
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But if God knows that in advance, then he's deliberately allowing the births of the future failures; i.e. having them be born just to wind up suffering eternally in hell. That seems quite evil.
There is no such thing as an eternal hell. And yes, if there was such a place, it would cast God in a very very bad light for bringing people into existence, forming them as vessels of dishonor just to fry them eternally. But He has assured us that He will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6).
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So...no...it's...well...it's free will...god doesn't know...Wait, yes he does. He knows EVERYTHING and he WISHES man would do the right thing...Wait, no. A god that can literally do anything, wipe out virtually an entire world (and per the story, already has) doesn't have to "wish" for anything, unless he's not all-powerful after all...so, wait...he IS all-powerful and he DOES know what men will make which decision but...Okay, no, wait. God HAS to do things the way he's doing them. Except God isn't supposed to "have" to do anything, so..um, wait. His own nature keeps him from being able to go against his nature which means that except for self-proclaimed jealousy, genocide and things like that, he...No, wait...Okay...can I start over?................
Free will is a misnomer. It is a contradiction in terms. Mankind has a will which the bible says is the will of the flesh and the bible says those in flesh cannot please God.
Anthropomorphically, God can show us jealousy. But we are assured also that "God is working all together for good.
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(thinking hard)
Oh, I have it, the final safety net answer. His ways are inscrutable to us and it's only this mystical thing called Grace that will allow us to understand!
(bing bing bing)
I see nothing wrong with that. Those who are called to be believing are the ones God will open their eyes and hearts to understand what is written but He will do so in His own good time.
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Look, dudes. Let's face facts. It's a case of a theological system painting itself into a corner. You and I and the mailman and any approximately average-intelligence third grader knows that there are holes, huge holes in this story. And any average idiot can see that every single gap that fills a hole just creates a new hole. It can't be true...unless one of the "unsavory" eventualities is true (i.e. God is evil).
No, let's face it, there are no holes in this story. It is only due to misunderstanding that one thinks there are holes.
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This is why circular logic is so popular among the very religious. These very obvious, very logical holes are unbearable to someone who is staking his or her life, literally, on this one belief. So apologetics come in...and circular logic...and "explanations" that, themselves, have holes...then redirection comes in...strawmanning...and on and on it goes. Because it is THAT unbearable to think that a belief system one is counting on with every cell of his or her body is just, well, wrong.
We should never use fallacies to prop up a belief.
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That agony of not being able to bear the logical conclusion here has caused untold horrors over the centuries. As vicious as torture and mass murder; as bland and walk-a-day as a superior outlook ("I'm going to heaven and he's not!"). Any psychologist would have a field day with all this (and many have, I'm quite sure). Because this type of hysterical "we MUST be right about OUR god" is an absolutely amazing, fascinating illustration of human psyche and its needs v. logic and reality. It perhaps even proves, or at least provides supporting evidence, of the emotional being at times more important to emotional, thinking humans than real-time needs, such as food, rest and so on.
It is not about "I'm going to heaven and he's not." It is about "God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." The problem is that between now and that far off day are judgments which some improperly think are God's final and ultimate goal for mankind rather than seeing the judgments as a prelude to His saving all mankind.
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But the bottom line is: we all know there are holes in this belief system from beginning to end...and we all know that "the problem of evil" has only one of two conclusions: There ISN'T a god that acts like Biblegod....OR there's a Biblegod...but it is severely, severely flawed in one or more ways (mentally ill, sadistic, ineffective, or whatever).
Please don't include me in the "we" of "we all know . . . ." Not all share your opinion.
There is evil in the world because God, as the Bible unblushingly states "created evil" and He will use it to bring about good.
Well there is no god so therefore god did not create evil. You can thank Humans for it...they do it all on their own accord.
Evil does not generate good...never has never will. It breaks the spirit of humanity.
That is merely your own *opinion* not based on factual evidence that there is no God.
Good does come out of evil which God brings upon people, always has, always will. And yes, it is meant to humble humanity.
Ecc_1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the
heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
That is merely your own *opinion* not based on factual evidence that there is no God.
Good does come out of evil which God brings upon people, always has, always will. And yes, it is meant to humble humanity.
Ecc_1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the
heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
All of the above is merely your indoctrinated and or brainwashed and or self-delusional *opinion*.
Just imagine how wonderful the world would be without evil. It certainly would change how many of us view the human species...which would be a major paradigm shift for humanity.
All of the above is merely your indoctrinated and or brainwashed and or self-delusional *opinion*.
Just imagine how wonderful the world would be without evil. It certainly would change how many of us view the human species...which would be a major paradigm shift for humanity.
Dear cyberbully, nonetheless, that is just your opinion there is no God.
Not only that, but that is just your opinion I've been indoctrinated, brainwashed and delusional.
One day evil will have done its salutatory work and will no longer be needed once all mankind are saved.
Dear cyberbully, nonetheless, that is just your opinion there is no God.
Not only that, but that is just your opinion I've been indoctrinated, brainwashed and delusional.
Dear cyberbully finger pointer you were not born with the things you think so do tell how you came to believe the things that you do? If it's not via conditioning/indoctrination/brainwashing/ self-delusional self-taught conditioning's then how did you come to believe the things you do with respect to evil?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
One day evil will have done its salutatory work and will no longer be needed once all mankind are saved.
Sure whatever It's been going on for 6 million years what's taking so long? Just keep believing your nonsense...it's not reality.
6 million years of evil that has only increased over the millions of years...so why is it taking so long? What's the purpose of that?
Dear cyberbully finger pointer you were not born with the things you think so do tell how you came to believe the things that you do? If it's not via conditioning/indoctrination/brainwashing/ self-delusional self-taught conditioning's then how did you come to believe the things you do with respect to evil?
Again, that is just your opinion, an opinion I believe to be wrong.
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Sure whatever It's been going on for 6 million years what's taking so long? Just keep believing your nonsense...it's not reality.
6 million years of evil that has only increased over the millions of years...so why is it taking so long? What's the purpose of that?
See how silly your beliefs are?
I already explained to you the purpose of evil and how it will no longer be needed in the future.
Adam and Eve were created between 6 and 10 thousand years ago. That was when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Like I say, God created evil and He will use it until it is no longer needed. God is working all together for good.
Last edited by mensaguy; 12-16-2015 at 01:21 PM..
Reason: fixed quote tag
Like I say, God created evil and He will use it until it is no longer needed. God is working all together for good.
Epic nonsense failure once again.
Let me ask you again.
6 million years of evil that has only grown worse and worse as humans evolved...so once again what's this man made god waiting for?
What a stupid worthless lousy god that would make us suffer for 6 million years with obviously no end in sight...for what? To hell with that kind of god and anyone who believes in him.
And once again how did you come to believe the things that you do with respect to evil?
You seem so proud to boast your beliefs but yet you appear to be ashamed to tell us how you came to believe in the things you do.
The term "evil" is loaded, neigh, freighted with hidden meaning and superficial cruft that produces heat but not light.
Suffering is what we are actually talking about. Suffering is the state of experiencing pain, deprivation or hardship. It inherently implies nothing about its source or whose fault it is. Evil on the other hand is malevolent, profound immorality, which implies agency, and violation of a particular moral code. Technically it has nothing to do with suffering other than guilt by association ... which is actually wrong because every human being suffers, no matter what moral code they subscribe to and no matter what forbidden things they do or don't do. Some morally unimpeachable people suffer unspeakably and some morally corrupt people enjoy life immensely.
Compassion and empathy are measured by the dedication one does or doesn't display for reducing and eliminating suffering where possible -- not eventually, but today. Those who are indifferent to suffering lack empathy and compassion and are therefore narcissistic and/or sociopaths.
The term "evil" is loaded, neigh, freighted with hidden meaning and superficial cruft that produces heat but not light.
Suffering is what we are actually talking about. Suffering is the state of experiencing pain, deprivation or hardship. It inherently implies nothing about its source or whose fault it is. Evil on the other hand is malevolent, profound immorality, which implies agency, and violation of a particular moral code. Technically it has nothing to do with suffering other than guilt by association ... which is actually wrong because every human being suffers, no matter what moral code they subscribe to and no matter what forbidden things they do or don't do. Some morally unimpeachable people suffer unspeakably and some morally corrupt people enjoy life immensely.
Compassion and empathy are measured by the dedication one does or doesn't display for reducing and eliminating suffering where possible -- not eventually, but today. Those who are indifferent to suffering lack empathy and compassion and are therefore narcissistic and/or sociopaths.
Hello again mordant.
I thought I would bold the above part that I thought was important.
I thought I would quote from a magazine we produce called Unsearchable Riches concerning this matter:
"
WHAT IS EVIL?
"One reason why people hesitate to accept that Yahweh created evil is because the term "evil" is not
clearly defined nor understood. Many people have a tendency to identify evil with sin or wickedness,
even though it signifies something different. In Hebrew, the word "evil" ra refers to that which is
destructive, harsh and uncomfortable. It is that which causes pain and sorrow, suffering and death.
Unlike wickedness, evil is not in itself a matter of morality. Evil is not sinful unless employed unjustly.
Since God is righteous in all that He does and one of the things that He does is create evil, we may be
assured that it is not a sin for Him to create it. This is so whether we have in mind "natural" evil or
"moral" evil.
"The context of evil actions and events determines whether any such entities are righteous or not.
The ultimate context is the will of God. To destroy something at Yahweh's command is certainly neither
sinful nor wicked, yet it is "evil" (by definition) nonetheless.
"To understand Yahweh's message to Cyrus, it is essential to properly define the terms He uses. Our
definitions must agree with His revelation.
"A second reason people fight the idea of evil coming from the hand of God is because they would
not choose to create it themselves, given the choice. People are most comfortable with a god made in
their own image. The dualistic view seems easier to contemplate. To acknowledge that Yahweh created
evil makes Him too complex to understand. Somehow it seems easier to blame the existence of evil on
someone else. If men only knew God's purpose—that all is "for Him" (1 Cor.8:6) and that all will finally
redound to His glory (Rom.11:36)—they would no longer conceive of evil as an object of ultimate
blame.
"Some postulate that Isaiah 45:7 refers only to "physical" evil, but not "moral" evil. The problem
with this argument is that Cyrus would not have separated the issues in this fashion.* In Isaiah 45:7,
light is contrasted with darkness, good with evil. The question of origins was under discussion.
Zoroastrianism relegated all physical and moral evil (along with darkness) to Angra-Mainyu. Yahweh is
challenging this thought by asserting that He alone has created all things, light and darkness, good and
evil. Cyrus would have clearly understood the contrasts being made" (Unsearchable Riches, vol.83).
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It's been going on for 6 million years what's taking so long? Just keep believing your nonsense...it's not reality.