Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And since we are on the subject of evil in this thread, the worst evil perpetrated on a human was the abuse and assassination of God's perfect, spotless Son. God didn't just allow that to happen. He made it happen. And the people who participated in His Son's demise unwittingly did so not even know that their very act would eventuate in their salvation.
I am sure I am missing the details to really understand this.
God had a plan in place for these people to be saved but they ignored it. God felt they needed another way to be saved. Therefore, his plan was for these evil people to complete one more evil act and the worst one imaginable, which is the death of a perfect human.
Jesus is not God. God sent His Son into the world to save sinners.
So you're not a trinitarian either?
If you believe Jesus saves then you must believe he was sinless.
If so then the absurdity usually enunciated by unbelievers -- that god sent himself to earth, killed himself, to save people from a penalty he decreed in the first place, for the sin of being as he made them ... is slightly eased. Not much though. Not much at all.
If you believe Jesus saves then you must believe he was sinless.
If so then the absurdity usually enunciated by unbelievers -- that god sent himself to earth, killed himself, to save people from a penalty he decreed in the first place, for the sin of being as he made them ... is slightly eased. Not much though. Not much at all.
Yes, I do believe Jesus was the sinless, spotless lamb of God.
If one reads Romans 5:12,18,19 one gets a glimpse into what Christ accomplished in His obedience to the cross for all mankind. Christ came to not just undo what we get from Adam's disobedience. There will be a new creation in Christ which will be governed by the spirit rather than the flesh.
I am sure I am missing the details to really understand this.
God had a plan in place for these people to be saved but they ignored it. God felt they needed another way to be saved. Therefore, his plan was for these evil people to complete one more evil act and the worst one imaginable, which is the death of a perfect human.
Is this what you are saying?
I am saying that it was God's plan to send His Son into the world to save us prior to the creation.
It does not depend upon whether humans believe it or not. It depends upon Christ's obedience to the cross.
Within that plan to send His Son into the world, it was also His plan that Judas would give up the Lord and His plan for the Jews to unjustly judge Christ and for those involved in His crucifixion to be involved.
Little did they know that their betrayal and their improperly judging and crucifying Christ would be the means of their salvation.
It is just like Joseph's brothers. They thought that by getting rid of Joseph they would be rid of their problem. But their ridding Joseph turned out to be their very salvation. And when Joseph's brothers came to him, he explained it this way: "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good." Within that thought we come to understand that God meant for Joseph to be sold and sent to Egypt (as an evil act by his brothers) and meant it for good. Good came of their evil.
I am saying that it was God's plan to send His Son into the world to save us prior to the creation.
It does not depend upon whether humans believe it or not. It depends upon Christ's obedience to the cross.
Within that plan to send His Son into the world, it was also His plan that Judas would give up the Lord and His plan for the Jews to unjustly judge Christ and for those involved in His crucifixion to be involved.
Little did they know that their betrayal and their improperly judging and crucifying Christ would be the means of their salvation.
It is just like Joseph's brothers. They thought that by getting rid of Joseph they would be rid of their problem. But their ridding Joseph turned out to be their very salvation. And when Joseph's brothers came to him, he explained it this way: "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good." Within that thought we come to understand that God meant for Joseph to be sold and sent to Egypt (as an evil act by his brothers) and meant it for good. Good came of their evil.
Thank you for elaborating. God knew Christ would be obedient? When you use the word "depends" it almost feels like Jesus had a choice.
Yes, the word that was toward God cannot be THAT God but is the expression of THAT God which that word represents.
Quote:
I like this one too. by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
Yes, that is to be believed. But the above verse does not tell us that Jesus is His God.
We need to find a verse which gets right to the heart of the matter. Such a verse is here:
1Co_8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."
The above verse tells us that God is the only God and is distinct from the one Lord, Jesus Christ. The above verse also tells us that God is the source of all and Christ is the channel but the words "out of Whom is all" and the words showing Christ as the channel are "through Whom all is."
Quote:
OR
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
That is true but that would contradict what Jesus also said in Revelation if it were telling us Jesus is God. Here is what Jesus said:
Rev_3:2 Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your
acts completed in the sight of My God."
Rev_3:12 '"The one who is conquering, him will I be making a pillar in the temple of My God, and he may
be coming out nevermore, and I will be writing on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of
My God, the new Jerusalem, which is descending out of heaven from My God, and My new name."
One Who has a God cannot be that God.
Quote:
If that's not good enough for you (can't image why it's not.) Jesus was a deity not human in NO way was he like a human other then his body.
I agree with you. Jesus was divine. He was the Son of God. And actually, this may throw you off some, but the Bible does call Jesus "the only begotten God" in Hebrews. But we must ask ourselves what is meant by that since we already know that Jesus has a God and that when Jesus was on the earth, His God was in heaven. We know this because when He came out of the tomb He told Mary to tell the disciples that "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to My God and your God." So in essence Jesus was telling them He is not their God but is ascending to where their God is. So how can Jesus carry the title "God"? "God" means "Placer" or "Subjector." Since God is subjected all mankind to Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:22-28) He is allowed to carry that title within that capacity. Likewise Jesus told the Jews "Did I not say ye are Gods?" They were supposed to be subjectors.
Now then, God sent His Son into the world to save sinners. He did not send Himself. God is spirit. You cannot kill spirit. He could not kill Himself.
The evil in the world will one day be completely done away when it is within God's good timing. And its demise will be due to Christ's obedience to the cross.
Thank you for elaborating. God knew Christ would be obedient? When you use the word "depends" it almost feels like Jesus had a choice.
Just prior to Christ being arrested He prayed in the garden that the cup might pass from Him. But He then said "Not My Will but Thine be done." So it was God's will that was done. Christ has a will and God has a will. Christ always obeyed His Father. The Father's will was always done by Christ.
But I was not using "depends" as if it were a possible out for Christ.
To me "depends" is a causal word. The falling of the pen in my hand depends upon my loosing my grip on it.
It actually goes much deeper than that.
Mankind needs to learn the knowledge of good and evil. This is why God planted that tree in the garden of Eden. Mankind is still learning from that knowledge.
Evil is also used to humble humanity. Being humble is a good thing.
It is more like:
Romans 8:20-21 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" (21) that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Wrong. Evil does not humble humanity.
Evil exists and there is no way to entirely squelch it, but it does not serve a purpose, it only harms.
The evil ones serve to harm, but that is not the same as serving a purpose.
Sad that a religion would create this myth to take the real focus off of evil as well as our helplessness to squelch it.
I guess it's easier to just ignore all the unjust evil in the world when you believe that it serves humanity.
The most disturbing part of that belief is that humanity is not humbled by evil. Evil serves no purpose.
Humanity is damaged by evil. Humanity loses faith in humans due to evil. It causes Humanity to keep weapons and bear arms for protection against evil.
Humanity is more dividend vs. united because of evil.
Humanity does not trust each other due to evil souls that exist among us.
Evil exists and there is no way to entirely squelch it, but it does not serve a purpose, it only harms.
Evil exists and there is no way to entirely squelch it, but it does not serve a purpose, it only harms.
The evil ones serve to harm, but that is not the same as serving a purpose.
Sad that a religion would create this myth to take the real focus off of evil as well as our helplessness to squelch it.
I guess it's easier to just ignore all the unjust evil in the world when you believe that it serves humanity.
The most disturbing part of that belief is that humanity is not humbled by evil. Evil serves no purpose.
Humanity is damaged by evil. Humanity loses faith in humans due to evil. It causes Humanity to keep weapons and bear arms for protection against evil.
Humanity is more dividend vs. united because of evil.
Humanity does not trust each other due to evil souls that exist among us.
Evil exists and there is no way to entirely squelch it, but it does not serve a purpose, it only harms.
It is just your opinion that evil does not humble humanity.
It is just your opinion that there is no way to squelch evil.
It is just your opinion that evil does not serve a purpose.
It is just your opinion that religion created this myth.
It is just your opinion that evil does not humble humanity.
It is just your opinion that there is no way to squelch evil.
It is just your opinion that evil does not serve a purpose.
It is just your opinion that religion created this myth.
You need to get out of your dark cave and check out humanity. You will easily find that those who are humbled are not humbled by evil.
The only way evil will be squelched is when humans no longer populate this planet. Until that day comes, you me and everyone on this planet will continue to to witness evil.
It's not my opinion that all the harm and darkness in the world due to evil has harmed and destroyed lives and created a humanity that does not trust others, a humanity who bears arms for protection, a humanity that keeps its doors and windows locked, some with bars on them, a humanity that has lost faith in humanity as a whole. Thank evil for all of this.
It is not an opinion that all the scriptures were written by people, who by virtue of their placement on planet earth, had little to no access to scientific knowledge or even common sense. They lived during a time that their world view would be considered today to be very narrow and unworldly. These people knew nothing of the facts that are now relevant in today’s world in the 21 Century. They knew nothing about the origins of life, the relationship between the mind and brain, they did not even know that mental illness actually existed in humans. They knew nothing about DNA or viruses. Nothing about computation, technology or even electricity. None of this is in scripture. They had no idea why people became sick and died.
Yes all of your claims are just based on myth.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
