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Tell me, why are all the prophecies in the Bible which have come to pass, some of them made over a thousand years prior to their fulfillment, not telling you anything positive concerning the bible? Do you need God to come down in a fiery chariot, roll out a red carpet just for you, before you believe Him?
You are portraying this as some onerous and unreasonable demand on my part for special treatment. It is however only what any rational actor would require. I would not want god to give me a private audience, but to give all humanity the things they would need if he wants to be in a position to demand belief.
I have already just told you what is lacking in prophecy -- specificity. Many of the fulfillments are in the same collection of books as the predictions and written long after the predictions. Aside from that the predictions themselves are loose templates into which many different historical trends and events can be overlaid.
This is not prophecy: "But when you see the abomination that causes desolation ... standing in the temple ... let those are in Judea flee to the mountains". This requires the rebuilding of the Temple to even be fulfilled, or otherwise the spiritualization of the term "temple" to mean something else. Then it requires that you identify "the abomination that causes desolation" Is it an idol erected in the literal temple, the Roman army laying siege to Jerusalem (as per the early church fathers), or the future Antichrist, the building of the Dome of the Rock, or something else? Does it have both a past and future sense of fulfillment, or just one? And what good would fleeing to the mountains be, and why is it consequential for Judea only?
Prophecy means what someone wants it to mean. And it is often not actionable. The above "prophecy" is a claim, not a sign until its fulfillment. And the only advice given about what to do when it's fulfilled (assuming you would be able to correctly determine that) is to run for the hills if you happen to live in a particular area.
No doubt you have a particular fondness for the messianic prophecies but guess what, even other theists don't agree that they were fulfilled in Jesus. The Jews for example to this day think your twisting of their holy book to fit what they regard as your false messiah to be laughable. So don't imagine that there is only one obvious and correct interpretation of those messianic prophecies.
You are portraying this as some onerous and unreasonable demand on my part for special treatment. It is however only what any rational actor would require. I would not want god to give me a private audience, but to give all humanity the things they would need if he wants to be in a position to demand belief.
I have already just told you what is lacking in prophecy -- specificity. Many of the fulfillments are in the same collection of books as the predictions and written long after the predictions. Aside from that the predictions themselves are loose templates into which many different historical trends and events can be overlaid.
This is not prophecy: "But when you see the abomination that causes desolation ... standing in the temple ... let those are in Judea flee to the mountains". This requires the rebuilding of the Temple to even be fulfilled, or otherwise the spiritualization of the term "temple" to mean something else. Then it requires that you identify "the abomination that causes desolation" Is it an idol erected in the literal temple, the Roman army laying siege to Jerusalem (as per the early church fathers), or the future Antichrist, the building of the Dome of the Rock, or something else? Does it have both a past and future sense of fulfillment, or just one? And what good would fleeing to the mountains be, and why is it consequential for Judea only?
Prophecy means what someone wants it to mean. And it is often not actionable. The above "prophecy" is a claim, not a sign until its fulfillment. And the only advice given about what to do when it's fulfilled (assuming you would be able to correctly determine that) is to run for the hills if you happen to live in a particular area.
No doubt you have a particular fondness for the messianic prophecies but guess what, even other theists don't agree that they were fulfilled in Jesus. The Jews for example to this day think your twisting of their holy book to fit what they regard as your false messiah to be laughable. So don't imagine that there is only one obvious and correct interpretation of those messianic prophecies.
Just because some disagree concerning the prophecies does not mean those prophecies did not come to pass. For instance, God told Abraham years prior to it occurring that Israel would be held captive in Egypt:
Genesis 15:13-15 And saying is He to Abram, "Knowing, yea, knowing are you that a sojourner is your
seed to become in a land not theirs, and they are to serve them. Yet evil shall they do to them and
humiliate them four hundred years. (14) Moreover, also, the nation which they are serving will I
adjudicate. And afterward they are to fare forth hither with great goods. (15) Yet you shall come to
your forefathers in peace, and be entombed at a good grey-haired age.
This prophecy was fulfilled to a 't'. The Jews and protestants believe the above as well to be fulfilled prophecy. Do you think Abraham said: "I won't believe it unless it happens"?
Just because some disagree concerning the prophecies does not mean those prophecies did not come to pass. For instance, God told Abraham years prior to it occurring that Israel would be held captive in Egypt:
Genesis 15:13-15 And saying is He to Abram, "Knowing, yea, knowing are you that a sojourner is your
seed to become in a land not theirs, and they are to serve them. Yet evil shall they do to them and
humiliate them four hundred years. (14) Moreover, also, the nation which they are serving will I
adjudicate. And afterward they are to fare forth hither with great goods. (15) Yet you shall come to
your forefathers in peace, and be entombed at a good grey-haired age.
This prophecy was fulfilled to a 't'. The Jews and protestants believe the above as well to be fulfilled prophecy. Do you think Abraham said: "I won't believe it unless it happens"?
How do you know it was fulfilled, much less to a "t"? Because the Bible says so.
From the point of view of historians there is no evidence that Abraham was even a real character. He might or might not have been. The Genesis account's source would have been oral traditions; the most you can say is that the customs and behaviors described are not inconsistent with known Nuzi custom of the day as established from Nuzi tablets.
So what you regard as a fulfilled prophecy about a real person is actually a cultural story which is not independently verifiable and is, for Jews and Christians, accepted as a matter of faith. You are then taking a story based on faith and then, based on faith in faith, saying that it was real people and that the internal account of the fulfillment is not contrived but is up to modern journalistic standards.
How do you know it was fulfilled, much less to a "t"? Because the Bible says so.
The Jews have been celebrating the Passover ever since. That should tell you something. Just like we celebrate D day or Armistice Day or July 4th.
Quote:
From the point of view of historians there is no evidence that Abraham was even a real character. He might or might not have been. The Genesis account's source would have been oral traditions; the most you can say is that the customs and behaviors described are not inconsistent with known Nuzi custom of the day as established from Nuzi tablets.
That's funny, all they have to do is go to the Cave of the Patriarchs in Israel and that is where Abraham, and the other patriarchs are buried.
Quote:
So what you regard as a fulfilled prophecy about a real person is actually a cultural story which is not independently verifiable and is, for Jews and Christians, accepted as a matter of faith. You are then taking a story based on faith and then, based on faith in faith, saying that it was real people and that the internal account of the fulfillment is not contrived but is up to modern journalistic standards.
No, it isn't a cultural story but is an historic document.
That's funny, all they have to do is go to the Cave of the Patriarchs in Israel and that is where Abraham, and the other patriarchs are buried.
Wow, that is cool. FYI, King Arthur is resting on the Isle of Avalon awaiting for a time that England really needs him again. If you're curious about investigating this absolute proof further I am glad to supply you with links, since you appear to believe just links on the internet are proof...so just say the word.
So they dug up Abraham's body, dated it, etc.? I would like to read more about this. I mean from the people who made a proof that Abraham and "the other patriarchs" are buried at the Cave of the Patriarchs.
Due to excessive bickering, thread is closed for now....
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