The Problem of Evil . . . to mordant and others (soul, faith, pray)

[TroutDude]

Originally Posted by Freak80

Sound like fun!

Sounds like another day on CD, with its regular cast of zany characters.

Present company excepted, of course...

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by JerZ

Because otherwise they wouldn't have know that?

And they wouldn't have known it because of the way God made them. Right?

Not to mention the fact that "even in the best situations (living in a garden, rent free, free food, free everything), they will still disobey" BECAUSE OF the way they were MADE, PLUS due to the maker deciding in advance that that was what they were going to do...

Tell me again whose fault this is? Fatal-mistake setups and Stockholm Syndrome, do ya feel the love...

Listen, I know this is going to sound insulting but the whole Bible outlook is so very childlike...good guys, bad guys...until somebody questions the inconsistencies of it all. WHEN the kids all start seeing the holes in their old stories, THEN they begin to mature, not just emotionally but intellectually.

But some people just never mature beyond that childlike point.

That is absolutely correct.
God made Adam and Eve flesh and soulish so they could not please Him or be subject to His law laid down in the garden. He created the serpent. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He planted the garden. He put that tree in the very midst of the garden so they would see it every day. God takes full responsibility for what occurred. And yet Adam and Eve must know what the results of disobedience are. They need to learn from the knowledge of good and evil.

It is not Stockholm Syndrome.
There are no inconsistencies in the historic Biblical accounts. The people who think there are inconsistencies are not seeing the whole picture. They are the ones who need to mature beyond that childlike point. They are not seeing God's overall goal for all mankind.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

That is absolutely correct.
God made Adam and Eve flesh and soulish so they could not please Him or be subject to His law laid down in the garden. He created the serpent. He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He planted the garden. He put that tree in the very midst of the garden so they would see it every day. God takes full responsibility for what occurred. And yet Adam and Eve must know what the results of disobedience are. They need to learn from the knowledge of good and evil.

Absurd. All I am hearing is the presentation of a ludicrous myth as fact with the glaring stitch -up passed of as something God needed to do as part of the learning curve.

But the same problem applies as with with all the other divine foul-ups. Why not get it right the first time. The 'Free will' argument has been discussed as a whitewash of the problem of evil and no doubt we will get it again, but free will not act a a magic word that will make the problem disappear.

It is not Stockholm Syndrome.
There are no inconsistencies in the historic Biblical accounts. The people who think there are inconsistencies are not seeing the whole picture. They are the ones who need to mature beyond that childlike point. They are not seeing God's overall goal for all mankind.

And this translates into "Ignore the glaring discrepancies and contradictions. There is nothing that can't be explained away, dismissed and ignored if you just "See the Big Picture" - Have Faith that it's all true". And secondly the dismissal of all problems that can't be explained away with some far -fetched invention, 'perhaps this..who knows..?' and dismissing the whole thing with 'God knows best'.

Believe that if you want, old mate, but you are informed just to remove all doubt that few kids believe in Santa over the age of nine, and any who still believe it at 15 are probably mentally unsound.

The same applies to those who think that Genesis makes sense, let alone is historical fact.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by mordant

This is becoming a rather Kafkaesque conversation.

There is little light, but much heat, to be had using loaded terms like "evil" that presuppose too much.

What it all comes down to is that life is difficult, often absurdly so, and when one casts about looking to see who is doing something about it, you see that it is science and technology and secular philosophy that are making it less difficult and that most everything else, including theism in all its forms, is doing nothing on a good day and making it MORE difficult on a bad day. Or as the NY Daily News courageously pointed out in yesterday's cover story about the San Bernardino massacre, GOD ISN'T FIXING THIS.

Hi mordant,
What I do appreciate about you is you are not just a drive-by poster who just shoots from the hip and nor to you post childish, one liner statements in this thread as some are doing. You are posting your thoughts that are very germain to the topic at hand and so I applaud you on that.

Conerning the NY Daily New comment that God isn't fixing this is not proof God does not care. He is not supposed to fix this . . . yet. We are living in "the current wicked eon" (Gal.1:4). It isn't supposed to be a righteous eon. The next two eons to come are the righteous eons in which righteousness will fill the earth.
I don't see atheist organizations out there taking care of the sick, feeding the poor, giving homeless a warm bed like Christian organizations do world-wide. Science, technology and secular philosophy is not doing that for these poor ones.

This whole thread is a sidebar about the problem of suffering that presupposes for the sake of argument that there is an allegedly benevolent, loving, caring, potent and aware deity who has our back ... mostly in a particularly unusual conception via Eusebius, who cheerfully acknowledges that this being does "evil that good may come of it".

I am glad you hit the nail on the head and are not like the childish posters in this thread who "don't get it" and say all manner of stupid things. At least you are fair and unbiased about it and that is very good.
Why should God alleviate all suffering in the world at this point in time? That would go against the very plan He has for the eons. The greatest evil ever perpetrated is the murder of God's perfect, righteous Son. God made sure the powers that be and people of Israel would murder Him. It is this very murder which will eventuate in their salvation from sin and death and not only theirs but every man, woman and child who ever lived.
This is much like Joseph who was a type of Christ and typified Christ's suffering. Joseph was sold into Egypt. His brothers wanted to do away with him. His prophetic statements enraged his brothers just as Christ's did the Israelites. And yet through all the suffering Joseph endured, he became what the Bible calls "the saviour of the world." Jesus Christ too will become the Saviour of the world as the Bible already calls Him. And yet no one could be saved unless Christ went through the evil of all He endured. Yes, absolutely God does evil that good will come. I rejoice in this.

But in purely pragmatic terms all I give a flying fig about is, does this thought-system either make life more compelling or life's difficulties less problematic? From where I sit, I left Christianity, my religion of birth, because it had no predictive or explanatory power concerning my existence and what was happening to me. It made simple things complicated.

I don't blame you. Most modern Christian churches are not set up to deal with these kinds of issues. Many of them are just corporations and those corporations are set up to bring money in to pay bills etc.
I have been through quite a few different churches and so understand where you are coming from. I believe that Concordant Publishing Concern which is the ministry I work for and have since the 70's does have very good answers. People just don't see the forest for the trees. All they see is the suffering they are going through and don't see the sequel to it to enable one to undergo it.

I suspect that some people actually take comfort in the notion that things happen, or not, for some Higher Purpose which has some responsible party in charge of things. But for me, the random BS in my life is far better accepted and understood as just things happening and not personal; there's no one at the controls and in fact no controls in the first place. If the BS in my life is part of some wise ineffable plan, all that does is tick me off, because it completely disregards whatever pain / suffering / loss that inflicts on me in favor of some alleged ultimate closure, always conveniently displaced in the future, somewhere just beyond my death. This is only my puny insignificant life, but it's all I have, I'm obliged to experience it whether I wanted / want it or not, and I'm supposed to smile and keep any objections to myself, accept 100% responsibility for everything that goes wrong and give 100% of the glory to god for everything that goes right.

I fail to see how that is very comforting. I don't think your life is puny nor insignificant and neither does God. Every day is a gift. He didn't have to bring us into existence (in the relative sense) and yet He did. I wonder how many posting in this thread would be happy if they never existed in the first place. Life is a gift. Existence is a gift. We should have absolutely nothing to complain about no matter how bad things get.
You stated there are no controls in the first place. We have governments, police, armies, state and federal governments. We are not truly free. No one is unless one lives on a deserted island and even then they are not free (sharks come to mind :-) ). We cannot just willy nilly do what we want without repercussions. People who do bad things get arrested.
I also fail to see how it is not comforting to know that God's promises of saving all mankind being in the future is not comforting. If you were married and had to go to war and told your wife you will return to her loving embrace, she would be comforted by knowing you will do what you can to ensure that promise.
Many of the promises that were supposed to come to fruition in the Bible have. So I see that God is good for His word. If He says that the entire creation will one day be freed into the glorious freedom of the sons of God, they it will occur. If He says He will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind then eventually He will. It is all on His schedule, not ours.

As my mother used to say, "nuts to that noise".

I'm sure your mother was very wise too.

Just wanted to cut through all this multilayered hypothetical BS for a moment of sanity. I now return you to your regularly scheduled talking past each other from alternative universes.

Warning: You are about to enter into the reality zone! :-)
I understand your reticence, having already gone through all the BS of some churches you may have attended.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Absurd. All I am hearing is the presentation of a ludicrous myth as fact with the glaring stitch -up passed of as something God needed to do as part of the learning curve.

But the same problem applies as with with all the other divine foul-ups. Why not get it right the first time. The 'Free will' argument has been discussed as a whitewash of the problem of evil and no doubt we will get it again, but free will not act a a magic word that will make the problem disappear.

The term "free will" is a misnomer. It is a contradiction in terms. I don't believe that, in the absolute sense, our wills are free.
I don't believe God is trying to do a stitch-up job. He has all under control and will bring to fruition each goal He has for each eon.

And this translates into "Ignore the glaring discrepancies and contradictions. There is nothing that can't be explained away, dismissed and ignored if you just "See the Big Picture" - Have Faith that it's all true". And secondly the dismissal of all problems that can't be explained away with some far -fetched invention, 'perhaps this..who knows..?' and dismissing the whole thing with 'God knows best'.

I see nothing contradictory or any discrepancies in God ensuring Adam would disobey and God bringing to pass what which He promised should Adam disobey. Nor do I see anything contradictory or inconsistent with God when God immediately told Adam and Eve about the Saviour to come. After all, why would it catch God off guard when everything is going according to His wise and loving plan?

Believe that if you want, old mate, but you are informed just to remove all doubt that few kids believe in Santa over the age of nine, and any who still believe it at 15 are probably mentally unsound.
The same applies to those who think that Genesis makes sense, let alone is historical fact.

That is your opinion not shared by all. And using a tactic such as guilt by association that if Santa is not real then neither is God or the historic accounts in Genesis is a fallacy argument on your part.
Santa did exist in the person of Saint Nicholas. Just because people turned him into an immortal super being is not his fault. And just because you have been infected with garbage concerning God is not my fault.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by mordant

Experience is the best teacher with respect to some things, but only because of our human limitations. God could instill effects equivalent to experience as well as knowledge if he chose to do so. He's god, after all.

Sorry I passed over this post of yours without answering to it.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "God could instill effects equivalent to experience as well as knowledge."

Human existence itself is bass-ackwards in that you make all sorts of important and irreversible decisions when you are young, inexperienced and hormone-crazed, and by the time experience teaches you anything a lot of time and resources are squandered and a lot of ships have already sailed. So having some sort of clue when it's actually needed would be a boon, even in the prosaic matters of whether / whom / when to marry, whether / when to have kids and how many and how close together, what education and professional paths to pursue. Knowing oneself and ones reality well enough to make quality decisions is not something that life is particularly well structured for if you're young. So even if experience is the best teacher, many of its lessons are delivered after large swaths of one's life are already set in stone or something pretty close to it, and the benefit one gets from these lessons are largely academic. The real life equivalent of "I coulda had a V-8!" when the choice of something else is already made.

Age, (getting older) and the accumulation of wisdom is a good thing, don't you agree? You are correct. Wisdom is lost on the young. They think they have it all figured out only to find that as they get older and into real life situations that they are humbled by knowing they don't have it all figured out. But it is the accumulation of the knowledge of evil in its varied forms which, if one really stops to think about it, will give them a contrast to the good which they come to see as good.
It could be that that is what God is after in teaching mankind the knowledge of good and evil in that one must wait till large swaths of one's life are already set in stone. One day they will look back and see how God worked it all out and they will see it was for the best.

It was no comfort to my wife when she knew her days were numbered, even though she believed that she would one day have an immortal and incorruptible body; what she needed in her present moments was just a basically functioning body that didn't torment her day and night, not some pie in the sky by and by IOU for it, or even for a perfect body.

I am sure you are right about that. We often want that which is not in our best interest even though, at the time, we think it is. Why is it some who are dying somehow get cured and live many years later but some don't? That may not seem fair to a lot of people. But God has all our days numbered and knows what we need to teach us what we need to learn.
You bring up this "IOU" as a recurring theme. God owes no one anything except salvation from sin and death and immortality and incorruption. He does not owe them this because WE suffer. He owes them this because His Son died for them. One day, should the Lord tarry, you and I will both be dead. We have death operating in our mortal bodies. There is no escaping death. Since I know this already and see it as inevitable, I see no reason to fight it. Sure, I take care of myself, exercise, eat well etc. But still I know my days are numbered. But it does give me comfort knowing good will eventuate out of the evil.

Well, fulfilled prophecy is another chimera we could have a whole other topic about. I will just say that Jesus has been coming any minute now for 2,000 years and leave it at that.

We are also told that Jesus will not return until the complement of the nations has entered (Romans 11:25). And "God is not tardy concerning the promises." We fallible humans do not know when that will occur and so we look for Him daily.

That is probably why I didn't subject myself to such people. But the important distinction is that you chose to do it and could have bailed anytime you decided it wasn't worth it.

Relatively speaking, you are correct. However, in the absolute sense, I could not bail since God was teaching me things I could not otherwise learn if I had bailed.

I am in the middle of the debugging session from hell right now but I choose to do it and get paid quite well to endure it. It is not something I'm obliged to cope with for free whether or not I have any interest in it or see any hope of accomplishment. It is not a situation I'm trapped in.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying above.

I am curious if I am correct in saying that your position is basically that we are god's sock puppets, that god has chosen that you believe and that he has chosen that I don't believe. I notice you didn't address that.

The Scriptures do not use the analogy of sock puppets. However it does tell us He is the Potter and we are the clay. He makes each vessel as He sees fit. Each vessel is made for a specific function in life. The vessel cannot go up to the potter and say in protest "Why did You make me thus?" God is very wise and very loving. Most people stop reading in Romans 9 concerning the making and controlling of the vessels (i.e., "Who hath withstood His intention?" no one). Yet they fail to read all the way to and including Romans 11 where God will be merciful to all. Many people look at God's goal with mankind via tunnel vision. They only look at the judgments as if judgments are God's end-all for humanity, little realizing they need to step back to see the whole picture that the judgments are before God saves all mankind.

Concerning God's choice of individuals:
God chooses specific individuals in life to be believing. He chose them, as the Bible states "before the disruption of the world." The rest He does not choose for salvation for the next two eons to come. The majority of those chosen are "not many wise, not many noble but the offscouring of the world God chooses and the foolish and contemptible ones. The ones chosen are to be a part of the administration of the complement of the eons: to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth. God doesn't need all mankind to do this. He needs a motley crew to do it. The rest of mankind enter into a salvific position at the consummation of the eons.

[bulmabriefs144]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Absurd. All I am hearing is the presentation of a ludicrous myth as fact with the glaring stitch -up passed of as something God needed to do as part of the learning curve.

But the same problem applies as with with all the other divine foul-ups. Why not get it right the first time. The 'Free will' argument has been discussed as a whitewash of the problem of evil and no doubt we will get it again, but free will not act a a magic word that will make the problem disappear.

And this translates into "Ignore the glaring discrepancies and contradictions. There is nothing that can't be explained away, dismissed and ignored if you just "See the Big Picture" - Have Faith that it's all true". And secondly the dismissal of all problems that can't be explained away with some far -fetched invention, 'perhaps this..who knows..?' and dismissing the whole thing with 'God knows best'.

Believe that if you want, old mate, but you are informed just to remove all doubt that few kids believe in Santa over the age of nine, and any who still believe it at 15 are probably mentally unsound.

The same applies to those who think that Genesis makes sense, let alone is historical fact.

People wise up to ideas if they have no backing.

They find that the facts don't add up, like that Mom and Dad stay up later than everyone else. On the other hand, there is at least some validity to theism. X created the world, the world kinda exists. That kinda puts atheism in the same position as Santa, doesn't it?

Effectively, you are either accusing theists of having some incurable stupidity (can you say, rude?) or congratulating yourself on being better than the rest of us for having seen (without any proof either) the truth.

Is this perfectly logical? Hell no. But the basic premise is at least reasonable.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is the result of a misunderstanding about what evil IS. Evil is NOT any bad thing that happens. Many bad things happen that do not involve the willful actions and designs of human beings. They are NOT evil, they are just bad and part of our reality. The only evil in the world is ALWAYS the result of willful and designed human actions. Only humans can be evil and it is always when they act without love or concern for others. Humans are the sole source of evil in this world and we could eliminate it if we all acted out of agape love for one another all the time.

Originally Posted by mordant

This is becoming a rather Kafkaesque conversation.
There is little light, but much heat, to be had using loaded terms like "evil" that presuppose too much.

What it all comes down to is that life is difficult, often absurdly so, and when one casts about looking to see who is doing something about it, you see that it is science and technology and secular philosophy that are making it less difficult and that most everything else, including theism in all its forms, is doing nothing on a good day and making it MORE difficult on a bad day. Or as the NY Daily News courageously pointed out in yesterday's cover story about the San Bernardino massacre, GOD ISN'T FIXING THIS.

This whole thread is a sidebar about the problem of suffering that presupposes for the sake of argument that there is an allegedly benevolent, loving, caring, potent and aware deity who has our back ... mostly in a particularly unusual conception via Eusebius, who cheerfully acknowledges that this being does "evil that good may come of it".

But in purely pragmatic terms all I give a flying fig about is, does this thought-system either make life more compelling or life's difficulties less problematic? From where I sit, I left Christianity, my religion of birth, because it had no predictive or explanatory power concerning my existence and what was happening to me. It made simple things complicated.

I suspect that some people actually take comfort in the notion that things happen, or not, for some Higher Purpose which has some responsible party in charge of things. But for me, the random BS in my life is far better accepted and understood as just things happening and not personal; there's no one at the controls and in fact no controls in the first place. If the BS in my life is part of some wise ineffable plan, all that does is tick me off, because it completely disregards whatever pain / suffering / loss that inflicts on me in favor of some alleged ultimate closure, always conveniently displaced in the future, somewhere just beyond my death. This is only my puny insignificant life, but it's all I have, I'm obliged to experience it whether I wanted / want it or not, and I'm supposed to smile and keep any objections to myself, accept 100% responsibility for everything that goes wrong and give 100% of the glory to god for everything that goes right.

As my mother used to say, "nuts to that noise".

Just wanted to cut through all this multilayered hypothetical BS for a moment of sanity. I now return you to your regularly scheduled talking past each other from alternative universes.

Ah, mordant. As usual you rail against the vagaries of life we all endure as if there should be some protection from them because they are evil. Except that they are NOT evil if they do not arise from the willful and deliberate actions of human beings. Evil only exists within a consciousness that is aware of the distinction between good and evil actions. We are to overcome and endure the vagaries of this physical life while keeping evil desires from our state of mind and actions (the only place they can exist). We should not confuse the things we perceive as bad with evil if there is no accompanying state of mind. Natural disasters and other natural occurrences, including the actions of prey/predators, microbes and viruses, etc. have nothing to do with good or evil. They just are. Your desire for a physically intervening God is of human origin and has nothing to do with God or reality. God is ALL ABOUT our spiritual development and maturity while overcoming the vagaries of this physical existence and enduring to the end. That is ALL ABOUT keeping our state of mind devoid of evil.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I don't see atheist organizations out there taking care of the sick, feeding the poor, giving homeless a warm bed like Christian organizations do world-wide. Science, technology and secular philosophy is not doing that for these poor ones.

Such organizations exist, and I think they exist fairly proportionate to our minority status, especially considering that unbelievers don't express 100% of their charity via specifically atheist organizations, as that is not really necessary. I have given $$ for example to Doctors Without Borders in the past. In point of fact I think the real question is what is the size of secular charity and government aid / charity, and would those not simply be much larger if religious-based charities were not shouldering some of the burden. I don't buy that there is more charity in the world because religion is behind some of it.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I am glad you hit the nail on the head and are not like the childish posters in this thread who "don't get it" and say all manner of stupid things.

I understand what you are saying but that doesn't mean I agree with it ... just to be clear.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Why should God alleviate all suffering in the world at this point in time?

Because people are suffering. An even more relevant question is why he didn't prevent the suffering in the first place so that there's no need for it to be alleviated.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

People just don't see the forest for the trees. All they see is the suffering they are going through and don't see the sequel to it to enable one to undergo it.

Suffering should be intolerable and unacceptable to the church and to god. And in my view not just human suffering, but animal suffering. My money is on the people and organizations that share this view, not those who make excuses for it.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I fail to see how that is very comforting. I don't think your life is puny nor insignificant and neither does God.

When a person realizes that their existence is of no significance whatever, life ceases to be about them, their needs, their role in some heroic narrative, and they start to live within their scope and become other-directed.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Every day is a gift. He didn't have to bring us into existence (in the relative sense) and yet He did. I wonder how many posting in this thread would be happy if they never existed in the first place. Life is a gift. Existence is a gift. We should have absolutely nothing to complain about no matter how bad things get.

If anyone in this thread didn't exist in the first place they would be neither happy nor unhappy, as they would not exist. Nonexistence is never a harm; existence on the other hand must inherently involve at least some harm / risk / compromise. I am not an antinatalist in that I acknowledge that those inherent harms can be worthwhile overall to most people, and we are two of those people, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. But it is a bridge too far to suggest that suffering is a necessary ingredient to life. I am of the view that suffering always and invariably diminishes the sufferer and interferes with enjoyment. I am also of the view that enjoyment, ease, and accomplishment are not bad things, do not inherently lead to indolence or indifference, and while they are states that we assign value to by contrast, we need not take that to the pointless extreme of suggesting that it is not enough to contrast good with excellent, rather we must also have negative experiences.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

You stated there are no controls in the first place.

I was referring to the general notion that god is in control of existence and has it all in hand. I do not believe this to be the case and in fact do not believe there is a control room or panel somewhere for someone to take charge of. We simply exist at the end of various causal chains. Dumb luck combined with our flexibility and skill and adaptability to situations that arise, determine whether our experiences are good, bad or indifferent.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

We are not truly free. No one is unless one lives on a deserted island and even then they are not free (sharks come to mind :-) ). We cannot just willy nilly do what we want without repercussions. People who do bad things get arrested.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I also fail to see how it is not comforting to know that God's promises of saving all mankind being in the future is not comforting.

If you are in agony, the only comfort for that has to be in the present. Future comforts are not helpful unless perhaps they are in the very near future and so act as a limit on your agony.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Many of the promises that were supposed to come to fruition in the Bible have.

Please do clue me in on an example.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It is all on His schedule, not ours.

Good for him. I don't have the luxury of eternity.

Originally Posted by Eusebius

I understand your reticence, having already gone through all the BS of some churches you may have attended.

I am not really one of those apostates who decries the church as full of hypocrites and shills as the basis of my departure. It is true that those things exist, but they exist in basically any organization of any size ... we would not get anything done if we demanded that everyone had to be perfect. I always used to say that if I ever found the perfect church I'd go and join it an ruin it :-)

Of course it's a fair criticism that if the church is the mediator of a superior / purer / better morality we ought to be able to hold it to a higher ethical and moral standard, to see less of the dark side of human nature when it is influenced by the church ... but regardless, that is not really front and center for me.

My reticence therefore was based not on real or perceived mistreatment by the church, or a lack of guidance as such. It was based on my understanding of the promises of god to his people, the power and efficacy of prayer, and similar things coming up short, even when the demands I put on them was restrained and minimal.

You will note that I use the past tense in the previous paragraph. I do that on purpose, because I'm talking about the motivation for my departure from the faith, which is many years in the past. Of more import to me today is that I am better adjusted, have more realistic expectations, and a more sane self-assessment than I did as a Christian. In short, I am happier, and this has ratified my departure.

The two best decisions I made in my entire life are my choice of profession and my departure from theism (and Christianity specifically). By far, hands down, no question.

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by southernbored

Several players died? I call BS.

I think that came from the same place as Noah and His Amazing Freeze Dried Koala Chow.