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Of course he can write about whatever he wants. But being a scientist and not a theologian, he is just making himself look stupid ranting and raving about things he knows nothing about.
I applaud your concern for prof Dawkins' credibility but it it your own credibility old son, that you should be concerned about, not his.
Of course, he is not an expert in theology, Bible study or history. Neither am I and neither, so far as I know, are you. But we are all evidently quite well informed in these areas and so what we post or indeed write in books is valid, if open to question all round. Because Prof. Dawkins can claim authority in the field of Biology but not in any other field.
Miracles would be credible evidence if you saw Jesus raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing paralitics, feeding over 5,000 with a couple of fish and couple loaves of bread.
Your problem is that nobody that we know of did see such things.
Of course he can write about whatever he wants. But being a scientist and not a theologian, he is just making himself look stupid ranting and raving about things he knows nothing about.
not a theologian? whats that mean? he's not allowed to make sit up?
Sure the atheist can defend a disbelief in that God just as one can defend a disbelief that we actually went to the moon, which some strenuously defend.
Except there is a mountain of evidence that we went to the moon. Those who say that we haven't are just another group of science deniers who like to feel important by spreading gossip. It's no different than water cooler talk at the office, church gossip between the pews, or salon gossip between stylist and client. People enjoy a brief yet powerful feeling of self-importance when they think they are the owners of information that someone else doesn't know. Unfortunately, conspiracy theorists prey on the ignorant -- and so, too, does religion, as well as preying upon the desperate, the lonely, the fearful, and the disenfranchised. Why do you think religious institutions have such a strong presence in places where vulnerable people are likely to congregate? In that sense, religion is even worse than conspiracy theorists in that religion is also predatory.
Your comparison between defending the non-existence of God and the non-occurrence of the moon landing is a misleading and sly association, one that didn't slip past me. As I said, the fact that we went to the moon is reinforced by enormous amounts of evidence coupled by a complete LACK of evidence that we did NOT go. For instance, no documents have ever been found, no whistle-blowers have ever come forward, no scientist has ever admitted that any of the moon rocks were fake, etc. The moon hoax theorists have a tough sell.
Religion should be equally tough since the evidence for any of it being true is as absent as the evidence that we never went to the moon. In fact, as we atheists have said tens of thousands of times, it isn't even up to us to defend our position. It's up to theists to defend theirs. If not for enculturation* (especially in America and especially of the young) that often greases the rails for a belief in Christianity, it is very likely that religion as we know it today wouldn't even exist.
People would have finally figured out by now that we can still believe in an afterlife without the politics, the societal control, the fascistic rules, the lists of people to hate, the time wasted worshiping and praising an insecure and immature deity, the "us vs. them" mentality, and the holy wars that religion so often brings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Atheists were around in Solomon's day. If they weren't he wouldn't have written 'The fool has said in his heart "'there is no God.'"
Every religion has called non-believers "fools" -- as well as many other names. Assuming, of course, that the non-believers weren't being put to the sword instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I believe the greater harm has been done to humanity with godless societies when communism raised its ugly head and over fifty million died as a result.
Heh, you're just going to keep clinging to that, aren't you. Doesn't matter if it's historically accurate or not, doesn't matter if it's the truth. Nope. I mean, you certainly didn't give a damn about the truth when you decided (assuming you even got to choose) to worship a Bronze Age god so hey! Why start worrying about the truth now?
I mean, it's not as if we haven't explained to you dozens of times how "godlessness" had absolutely nothing to do with it -- that mismanaged communism fueled by the sociopathic and paranoid personalities of Mao and Stalin were the real causes of all those deaths. But oh no, don't let history spoil a good "leg up" on we atheists, right? If godlessness just happened to exist within an ideology practiced by lousy rulers, let's just focus on the godlessness and blame atheism for all 50 million deaths!
Like I always say -- fascism, including fascistic religion, has always had the best propaganda apparatus since actual truth isn't very high on their list of priorities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The wiser position to take would be agnosticism since no one can know for sure if God exists or not.
Except that's not what you say, now, is it. Nope. You make no bones about declaring that God exists. Period. And that somehow you know that God exists. Why don't you just come out and say that agnosticism is as wrong as atheism and be done with it? There's no such thing as one wrong position being "wiser" than another wrong position if they're both equally wrong.
Besides, I think it's safe to say that most atheists are actually "agnostic atheists" ... and those two terms are NOT mutually exclusive. You can be both.
Most atheists freely admit that there's no way to really know whether or not a god exists. Maybe there's a god and maybe there isn't. And to that, we simply shrug and say, "So what?" There are an infinite number of things we cannot definitively prove or disprove. Perhaps there's a planet like Saturn somewhere that has a ring system comprised not of rock and ice but of all the little objects we humans have lost: pens, lighters, keys, coins, paperclips, lids, things of that nature. But who cares if there is? It doesn't affect our lives one way or the other.
We atheists say the same thing about a god that may or may not exist. Who cares? If this god exists, he/she/it is doing absolutely nothing to convince anyone of its presence. The existence or non-existence of such a god is immaterial to the course of our lives.
Now, with the Abrahamic religions, that's a different story. Because there are enough assertions made by these religions to make a definitive statement of whether or not we think that god exists ... and we say no. In fact, we don't believe that any of these man-made religions define reality in any believable context. There might be some wisdom here and there in their messages, but overall, they are just myths.
And we arrived at that conclusion merely by using our heads. You know, that big muscle between your ears that tends to get shut off when religion is involved. We held religion to the same standards we would use when judging any other crazy-sounding story whether it would be alien abductions, Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster. To not only believe in religion but to live it, to devote oneself to it, to somehow genuinely and truly love God, to accept the miracles of Christ as historical fact, and to do all of these things while both dismissing all other religions and much of science at the same time ... that takes more than a few sermons and some comforting Bible passages. In fact, that even takes more than simple desire, to WANT it all to be true.
That takes proof. Nothing less. So far ... there just isn't any. There's not even any good evidence much less proof. And there just isn't ANY reason why we should lower our standards merely because it's religion, because believing in these ancient myths has become a cultural tradition. I know you don't see it that way and I'm sure you think faith healers and tingly sensations proves conclusively that everything about Christianity is true ... but that just doesn't cut it with some of us. Our brains aren't hardwired to operate that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Remember, Atheism isn't about whether an atheist believes if God exists or not. It is one who has a lack of belief that God exists. Which is the same as saying they are of the opinion God does not exist.
No.
As we keep saying, we believe that there is a lack of evidence for the existence of any gods, much less any specific god such as Jehovah/YHWH/Allah. That's not the same thing as saying, "No god exists."
It's just that, with specific gods entangled in specific myths, it becomes far easier to debunk the entire paradigm -- including the existence of said god. Thus we can say with confidence that the Abrahamic god does not exist while still holding true to the truism that we cannot definitively prove or disprove the existence of a "generic" god who is truly unknowable.
Oh, and don't bother claiming that we cannot definitively prove or disprove the existence of the Abrahamic god, either. Using the same standards that we use in any other circumstance to gauge reality and to judge what is and isn't true, the Abrahamic gods flunked in a most hideous fashion.
The road goes both ways. Scientists should not be in the business of trying to cram their unbelief down the throats of Christians like Dawkins and other of his cult do. It is harmful to society and makes those scientists look like sociopaths. They need to stick with what they know and let us stick with what we know.
Ah yes, the fascism of religion ... it inevitably arises in each and every one of these debates.
Yes, the road goes both ways, but only if there actually WAS a road going the way you THINK Dawkins is going. Which there isn't, by the way.
Your attitude here is precisely the reason why I have become such a militant atheist. I used to be a quiet non-believer until I encountered one Christian fascist after another who honestly believed that Christians, and Christians alone, had the right of free speech. Christians and only Christians had the right to express their opinions and to speak publicly about their beliefs. Only Christians have the right to display signs and billboards promoting their religion.
I think the clincher came when I worked at a county library down south and had to deal with an endless stream of "protest" forms submitted by Christians who thought they had the right to decide for everyone else what we can and can't read; what the library is allowed and not allowed to make available to the public.
I see the same kind of stinking fascism here, too.
When it comes to Dawkins, this isn't some diplomatic exchange whereby atheists must make a concession in order to convince fundamentalist Christians to stop violating the Constitution. No, not at all.
Dawkins is allowed to write and speak about and against religion all he wants and, of course, I will support his right to do so. You don't get to "silence" Dawkins by claiming the "road goes both ways" because it doesn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
How many damn times must I remind you of the polling data which shows atheists as being the most hated and least trusted group in America? Even more than Muslims and homosexuals?
Our status didn't sink so low because of hotel bibles and a few billboards.
Fundamentalists and evangelicals have been attacking, demeaning, insulting, deriding, denigrating, misrepresenting, and lying about the "godless" for years if not decades. They've been doing this with complete impunity on television, on the radio, and in print with nary an atheist anywhere in sight to defend atheism and counter the constant rubbish spewed forth by the preachers of hate. We've been accused of everything from immorality and extreme hedonism to being anti-American to even active Satan worship because that's just the way fundamentalist religion operates. That's why you have fundamentalist Muslims across the ocean saying the exact same thing about Western Christians. It's all about hatred, bigotry, xenophobia, scapegoating, and a deep-rooted suspicion of the "other."
All things considered, listening to you complain about Richard Dawkins is a joke. If Christians had to put up with even 1% of the bashing we atheists have to deal with, you'd probably go insane.
"If you had been there when Hephaestus gave humanity the gift of fire against Zeus's wishes ..."
"If you had been there when Isis found the dismembered body of Osiris and resurrected him ..."
"If you had been there when Daniel Boone wrestled 3 grizzlies by himself ..."
"If you had been there that time when I fought and killed 237 Al-Qaeda terrorists and won the Battle of Fallujah all by myself ..."
Damn' was that you? I didn't recognize you in your Kevlar and helmet. ..did I tell you about how I won the battle of Quadesh armed only with a Gatling -gun, while Ramessses was hiding under a camp -follower's bed? If Eusebius had only been there, he'd vouch for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Except there is a mountain of evidence that we went to the moon. Those who say that we haven't are just another group of science deniers who like to feel important by spreading gossip. It's no different than water cooler talk at the office, church gossip between the pews, or salon gossip between stylist and client. People enjoy a brief yet powerful feeling of self-importance when they think they are the owners of information that someone else doesn't know. Unfortunately, conspiracy theorists prey on the ignorant -- and so, too, does religion, as well as preying upon the desperate, the lonely, the fearful, and the disenfranchised. Why do you think religious institutions have such a strong presence in places where vulnerable people are likely to congregate? In that sense, religion is even worse than conspiracy theorists in that religion is also predatory.
Your comparison between defending the non-existence of God and the non-occurrence of the moon landing is a misleading and sly association, one that didn't slip past me. As I said, the fact that we went to the moon is reinforced by enormous amounts of evidence coupled by a complete LACK of evidence that we did NOT go. For instance, no documents have ever been found, no whistle-blowers have ever come forward, no scientist has ever admitted that any of the moon rocks were fake, etc. The moon hoax theorists have a tough sell.
Religion should be equally tough since the evidence for any of it being true is as absent as the evidence that we never went to the moon. In fact, as we atheists have said tens of thousands of times, it isn't even up to us to defend our position. It's up to theists to defend theirs. If not for enculturation* (especially in America and especially of the young) that often greases the rails for a belief in Christianity, it is very likely that religion as we know it today wouldn't even exist.
People would have finally figured out by now that we can still believe in an afterlife without the politics, the societal control, the fascistic rules, the lists of people to hate, the time wasted worshiping and praising an insecure and immature deity, the "us vs. them" mentality, and the holy wars that religion so often brings.
Every religion has called non-believers "fools" -- as well as many other names. Assuming, of course, that the non-believers weren't being put to the sword instead.
Heh, you're just going to keep clinging to that, aren't you. Doesn't matter if it's historically accurate or not, doesn't matter if it's the truth. Nope. I mean, you certainly didn't give a damn about the truth when you decided (assuming you even got to choose) to worship a Bronze Age god so hey! Why start worrying about the truth now?
I mean, it's not as if we haven't explained to you dozens of times how "godlessness" had absolutely nothing to do with it -- that mismanaged communism fueled by the sociopathic and paranoid personalities of Mao and Stalin were the real causes of all those deaths. But oh no, don't let history spoil a good "leg up" on we atheists, right? If godlessness just happened to exist within an ideology practiced by lousy rulers, let's just focus on the godlessness and blame atheism for all 50 million deaths!
Like I always say -- fascism, including fascistic religion, has always had the best propaganda apparatus since actual truth isn't very high on their list of priorities.
Except that's not what you say, now, is it. Nope. You make no bones about declaring that God exists. Period. And that somehow you know that God exists. Why don't you just come out and say that agnosticism is as wrong as atheism and be done with it? There's no such thing as one wrong position being "wiser" than another wrong position if they're both equally wrong.
Besides, I think it's safe to say that most atheists are actually "agnostic atheists" ... and those two terms are NOT mutually exclusive. You can be both.
Most atheists freely admit that there's no way to really know whether or not a god exists. Maybe there's a god and maybe there isn't. And to that, we simply shrug and say, "So what?" There are an infinite number of things we cannot definitively prove or disprove. Perhaps there's a planet like Saturn somewhere that has a ring system comprised not of rock and ice but of all the little objects we humans have lost: pens, lighters, keys, coins, paperclips, lids, things of that nature. But who cares if there is? It doesn't affect our lives one way or the other.
We atheists say the same thing about a god that may or may not exist. Who cares? If this god exists, he/she/it is doing absolutely nothing to convince anyone of its presence. The existence or non-existence of such a god is immaterial to the course of our lives.
Now, with the Abrahamic religions, that's a different story. Because there are enough assertions made by these religions to make a definitive statement of whether or not we think that god exists ... and we say no. In fact, we don't believe that any of these man-made religions define reality in any believable context. There might be some wisdom here and there in their messages, but overall, they are just myths.
And we arrived at that conclusion merely by using our heads. You know, that big muscle between your ears that tends to get shut off when religion is involved. We held religion to the same standards we would use when judging any other crazy-sounding story whether it would be alien abductions, Bigfoot, or the Loch Ness Monster. To not only believe in religion but to live it, to devote oneself to it, to somehow genuinely and truly love God, to accept the miracles of Christ as historical fact, and to do all of these things while both dismissing all other religions and much of science at the same time ... that takes more than a few sermons and some comforting Bible passages. In fact, that even takes more than simple desire, to WANT it all to be true.
That takes proof. Nothing less. So far ... there just isn't any. There's not even any good evidence much less proof. And there just isn't ANY reason why we should lower our standards merely because it's religion, because believing in these ancient myths has become a cultural tradition. I know you don't see it that way and I'm sure you think faith healers and tingly sensations proves conclusively that everything about Christianity is true ... but that just doesn't cut it with some of us. Our brains aren't hardwired to operate that way.
No.
As we keep saying, we believe that there is a lack of evidence for the existence of any gods, much less any specific god such as Jehovah/YHWH/Allah. That's not the same thing as saying, "No god exists."
It's just that, with specific gods entangled in specific myths, it becomes far easier to debunk the entire paradigm -- including the existence of said god. Thus we can say with confidence that the Abrahamic god does not exist while still holding true to the truism that we cannot definitively prove or disprove the existence of a "generic" god who is truly unknowable.
Oh, and don't bother claiming that we cannot definitively prove or disprove the existence of the Abrahamic god, either. Using the same standards that we use in any other circumstance to gauge reality and to judge what is and isn't true, the Abrahamic gods flunked in a most hideous fashion.
What a shame I can't rep you for this considered reply to an unthinking, denialist and well -poisoning diatribe about what atheists are (according to Eusebius, and never mind what we say) not to mention implying that we ought to be more open to being wrong (which we are) while he is utterly certain on FAITH that he is right.
Add to that several low blows and foul kicks at atheism with hostile Biblequotes and the rather (by now) discredited identification of atheism with Stalinist excesses. and we are left wondering what that post had to do with the topic - except that 'evidence' in religion is plonking Faith -claims and denouncing those with other views as fool and exterminators of millions.
We need people like you putting our side, because we shore as squat don't get any fair hearing from the opposition.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-03-2016 at 12:20 PM..
Reason: bit of editing..
theist don't understand that scientist don't care if there is or is not a whatever is as long as its the best conclusion we gotz. well, I should make clear most, some have ax's or emotional needs I guess.
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Damn' was that you? I didn't recognize you in your Kevlar and helmet. ..did I tell you about how I won the battle of Quadesh armed only with a Gatling -gun, while Ramessses was hiding under a camp -follower's bed? If Eusebius had only been there, he'd vouch for me. 
