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I follow in a long line of those who spoke the Latin I know. When I personally think about it it's a moment of great significance.
I like it that I continue the procession of ritual.
I understand.
I do think that this appeals to some more than it does to others. The whole zeitgeist of my own former evangelical protestant faith was a repudiation of institutional religion (not just picking on Catholicism here but "high church" in general, and even mainline protestant denominationalism) on the basis that it consisted largely of ritual, which was presented as almost a dirty word and synonymous with adjectives like empty, dead, and lifeless. The conceit of fundamentalist protestantism is that it is a vibrant, living relationship between god and the adherent.
Clearly they get converts and in my experience they came from two places: people with no religious background at all who were looking for something relatable and perhaps even exciting, and people from those supposedly "dead, lifeless" churches who were looking for something far more inspiring.
From this I conclude that the very thing that floats your boat, sinks other people's boats.
Of course it's all perceptions. There are all sorts of lively things going on in Catholic churches, and all sorts of one-foot-in-front-of-the other moroseness in evangelical churches. I'm talking theory and selling points here, not actual reality.
No, janelle. You keep forgetting that Christ did the salvation bit. We have nothing to do with it. We achieve sanctification under Christ's love for us all by loving God and each other every day and repenting when we don't. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
If you are truly loving God and each other every day you can NOT sin. But if you do, you can repent.
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Originally Posted by janelle144
And repenting is how one co-operates with God in our salvation. Don't co-operate, lose our salvation.
There is no losing of our salvation, period. We have it because of Jesus. What we can reduce is the amount of coverage of our imperfections we have from Christ's perfection. The less we resonate (harmonize) with Christ's love the less compatible we are with God and the longer we must reap what we have sown before joining God..
Re: 'From this I conclude that the very thing that floats your boat, sinks other people's boats'
Indeed mordant indeed. I'll never forget watching a scene in the film 'Cromwell' where he finds himself in a Church with all the Catholic physical sacramental trappings. Looking at it all flies into a rage destroying anything in sight near the high altar. Hehe that man found himself in another 'boat'. He in turn seeing those symbols drove him to engage in instigating a religious shipwreck. Not all that sacred gold for him mixed with pomp and circumstance!
The wine is good. I like that, as well as the coffee and treats that sometimes follow a service. Nice opportunity to meet people. And of all the Christian religions, it seems to be the one most based on mercy, not condemnation. Like many Zen Buddhists in America, I started out as a Catholic, and always thought that it attracted more stable people. We didn't have too many nut cases that were obviously out there, nor did we have those condemnation episodes like the Baptists sometimes lapse into. The theology seemed to be basically what Jesus is alleged to have practiced. If you're ever down on your luck, seek out the Catholics. They will generally help you out of kindness and respect from their teachings.
Nearly no one I knew actually gave any credence to the pope, or the statues, or prayers to Mary, or any of that, although some of the faiths branched in that direction. Those are not what I would term true Catholic practices. Catholicism is not at all like most people think it is, especially Christians from more fundamentalist backgrounds. There is that air of mystery though. It's a very pagan sort of thing, and why not? I mean, drinking your god's blood and eating his flesh? Pretty spooky on one level. All good Christian faiths should have something of the pagan about them to scare the crap out of people, especially children. It sure scared me until I became an adult and began to think things through, which is what led me eventually to Zen I suppose, or as much as anything else. My wife is always kidding me that I like the Catholics too much and want to return to the faith, but after Zen you just can't go anywhere else. End of the road in that respect. I do like all the pageantry and ritual, but for THEM, not for me.
Sometimes when I go into a Zen zendo and see all those black robes, the incense, the little alter w/ maybe a small Buddha on it, it feels eerily Catholic. There's even chanting, and sometimes monks or roshis have prayer beads, which is totally bizarre. But that's all surface, and the beads are used as a means of meditation, not toward any deity. It's nothing similar to anything else actually. Even as a Zen Buddhist I can go to a Catholic service and feel comfortable, even though I don't practice that faith anymore. No one is going to criticize me if they know I'm Zen, or try to convert me, which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for most religions, Christian or otherwise.
Incense, candles, stained glass and the choir at Midnight Mass. And the vestments are cool, especially those used in Eastern Rite churches.
I also admired JP2 and like Pope Frankie.
Good. I used to be Catholic. Now I follow pastor arnold murray and dennis murray when they come on tv once a week or so on channel 042. They have the light of God and speak with love and care. They are easily discerned as God's instructors from the false instructors. Catholicism is a step up from paganism and is a way for pagans to love the lord and repent of any evil. It's a way for them to really be at peace with God, whereas before they were going through the stage of fun and drugs, etc... but now they can mature more in the lord and focus on love and the things of the lord if they need or want to. I like Catholicism.
Re: 'From this I conclude that the very thing that floats your boat, sinks other people's boats'
Indeed mordant indeed. I'll never forget watching a scene in the film 'Cromwell' where he finds himself in a Church with all the Catholic physical sacramental trappings. Looking at it all flies into a rage destroying anything in sight near the high altar. Hehe that man found himself in another 'boat'. He in turn seeing those symbols drove him to engage in instigating a religious shipwreck. Not all that sacred gold for him mixed with pomp and circumstance!
Yeah the joke among evangelicals was the the RCC builds cathedrals for the ages and evanglicals would just build pole barns to tide us over until the rapture. Doctrine has consequences. If you think you are supposed to bring about the return of Christ by building heaven on earth, you will have a different approach than if you think Christ is returning to bring heaven with him.
While I have personally come to the place that I don't care for either illusion, I have an appreciation for the headspace people get into over them.
Now I follow pastor arnold murray and dennis murray
Ah, so Shepherd's Chapel it is then. You never did answer my question about what sort of church you are getting all your rather ... unusual ... teachings from.
As s deconvert, I have no skin in the game anymore so I'm not here to berate you over my idea of correct theology, but it is helpful to know the basis (such as it is) of your ideology because you sure aren't explaining it very coherently sometimes yourself. No offense, really ... but exposition isn't your strong suit.
Ah, so Shepherd's Chapel it is then. You never did answer my question about what sort of church you are getting all your rather ... unusual ... teachings from.
As s deconvert, I have no skin in the game anymore so I'm not here to berate you over my idea of correct theology, but it is helpful to know the basis (such as it is) of your ideology because you sure aren't explaining it very coherently sometimes yourself. No offense, really ... but exposition isn't your strong suit.
Re: 'Like many Zen Buddhists in America, I started out as a Catholic, and always thought that it attracted more stable people'....
Interesting. I'd be curious as to why ZB would attract particularly Catholics. Are the beliefs perhaps generally familiar in some respects? Or familiar say with a twist?
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