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I think there is more of the carry-over of ludus, granted an aid to education and survival too much lost when we "grow up," but not a really angst based activity.
Perhaps we can just agree that evil, wicked and sinful are loaded terms then, because from that perspective it doesn't really matter if we agree on whether they are fundamentally theological concepts. They are shaming terms that suggest that the reason a child does a thing has something to do with their fundamental character, nature and makeup. And that is destructive and harmful to suggest when a misbehaving child is simply ignorant of the full facts of their situation and inexperienced at the required self discipline and needs loving correction and mentoring, not to be made to feel that they are awful persons.
Telling a child that what they are doing is harmful, unethical, or inconsiderate is focusing on the actions. Telling them that it is evil, wicked or sinful is focusing on their worth as a person.
Agreed.Tzaph has a good point that Sinful is more the theological term (in the sense of refusing to do things according to the rules of a celestial being) whereas Wicked or evil is loaded as you say, implying the one must have some essential badness or even had opted to do the bad. I rather doubt that it is so simple. There is a bad person in the sense of one that rejects reciprocity and opts just to do what suits them. That is perhaps giving in to instinct and rejecting the lessons of ethics. Otherwise, it is not so simple, as I say, and there can be few of the other kind who do not believe that what they are doing is for the good, even if some harm is done along the way.
Actually, I suspect at some level our unconscious (or the subconscious if you prefer, which does quite a lot for us without us having to coordinate it) assesses the proposition of life as an emotional burden, which must be overcome, in order to avoid the threat of existential angst. Hence why a certain level of self-delusion and distraction isn't such a bad thing. Which is why we enjoy things like art which do not seemingly have direct utility to our self-preservation. I hypothesize that these things do have utility...it is to distract (or overcome) from the existential angst of the burdensome life (to the unconscious).
It's admittedly a work in progress hypothesis.
I think you are on the right lines. I do see a lot off the stuff we do as having an instinctive origin (whic is why all humans societies do these things in one way or another) and they have a survival aspect as they enable up to function in our environment better. Wanting to live and fear of death, the protection of family and fighting for the Group, competition for resources and influence, are all pretty clear. Writing, dance and music perhaps have a basis in the need for communication. our reasoning powers allow us to go beyond the basic instincts, but the evolved survival - instinct is (I think) the place where all this stuff originates.
The difficulty comes when what the individual perceives as beneficial to him must be suborned to the benefit of the group, which is to the overriding benfit of the individual, but counter to some elements of instinct.
I will say it at once: I do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in God's garden, and the guilt for their action somehow falling onto the entire human race. If that story were true, then God would be the one responsible for making them face the temptation unprepared.
But still, sometimes it seems to me that humanity has a natural bent to being evil. Other species would kill for food or in self-defense, and humans do that too, of course. But unlike other species, humans seem to enjoy doing harm to other living beings (whether fellow man or other species) even when it brings no tangible benefit to themselves whatsoever, just for the fun of it. Just recently there was a thread on CD about kids who put their baby sibling into a hot oven. I can imagine those kids did not know what they were doing at first. But when the screaming started, these kids knew very well that the baby was suffering, and they still did nothing. And that is only one example.
People, both children and adults, inflicting pain on animals, for no use whatever. Trophy hunting. People throwing their garbage all over the place, trashing their neighborhoods, painting graffiti tags on walls. People being obnoxious and rude to others for no other reason than they can do it. And so on, and so forth....
So, what do you think, do people have an innate inclination to evil, or are they fundamentally good, but sometimes misguided creatures?
"Fundamentally Evil"? Hmmmmmmm...let me think aout it a second.
No...not me, anyway...I'm much worse than that.
That just sounds like "Basic Bad" to me. That's small-time...you gotta work on it!
The difficulty comes when what the individual perceives as beneficial to him must be suborned to the benefit of the group, which is to the overriding benfit of the individual, but counter to some elements of instinct.
There are plenty of difficulties. That is why people sometimes throw up their hands in despair at humans ever being able to sort their problems. I am much more hopeful. I thik that we have no idea at the moment how much better we can understand ourselves and improve ourselves.
Don't we sometimes look back and laugh at the superstitious fears and ignorance that plagued our ancestors (Though as Khan said: "How little man himself has changed"). I think that -like our ancestors - we didn't have the information and knowledge. I can see that coming and I can see that being like whipping away the curtain that revealed Oz. And we will realize just how we have allowed ourselves to be led around by the nose.Indeed, how we done it to ourselves and further how we told ourselves that this was the only right way to live.
One of the early lessons of the Straw Vulcan was how (though we loved and admired Spock) was that human scriptwriters had no more idea how to describe a truly rational alien species than a Babylonian could write a book on evolution theory.
There are plenty of difficulties. That is why people sometimes throw up their hands in despair at humans ever being able to sort their problems. I am much more hopeful. I thik that we have no idea at the moment how much better we can understand ourselves and improve ourselves.
Don't we sometimes look back and laugh at the superstitious fears and ignorance that plagued our ancestors (Though as Khan said: "How little man himself has changed"). I think that -like our ancestors - we didn't have the information and knowledge. I can see that coming and I can see that being like whipping away the curtain that revealed Oz. And we will realize just how we have allowed ourselves to be led around by the nose.Indeed, how we done it to ourselves and further how we told ourselves that this was the only right way to live.
One of the early lessons of the Straw Vulcan was how (though we loved and admired Spock) was that human scriptwriters had no more idea how to describe a truly rational alien species than a Babylonian could write a book on evolution theory.
I pretty much agree. Although we have to avoid the error of scientism, which fails to recognize that even rational actors are only rational relatively speaking. As this article points out, pretty much in agreement with your last paragraph above, there are limits to our rationality and objectivity, at least currently, and we need some intuitive inputs to the system to account for that.
There are plenty of difficulties. That is why people sometimes throw up their hands in despair at humans ever being able to sort their problems. I am much more hopeful. I thik that we have no idea at the moment how much better we can understand ourselves and improve ourselves.
... and how little desire or inclination to understand and improve themselves the absolute majority of people has. I can see it in many people I daily come in contact with: they say and do things, react to situations without ever trying to understand what inner motives are behind their own actions. They cannot step back and look at themselves from a point of view of another, and often they cannot even keep to simple logic or consistency in their behavior.
I will say it at once: I do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in God's garden, and the guilt for their action somehow falling onto the entire human race. If that story were true, then God would be the one responsible for making them face the temptation unprepared.
Except that God gave them the ability to choose. They chose to rebel. He also personally died on a cross to redeem man.
Quote:
But still, sometimes it seems to me that humanity has a natural bent to being evil. Other species would kill for food or in self-defense, and humans do that too, of course. But unlike other species, humans seem to enjoy doing harm to other living beings (whether fellow man or other species) even when it brings no tangible benefit to themselves whatsoever, just for the fun of it. Just recently there was a thread on CD about kids who put their baby sibling into a hot oven. I can imagine those kids did not know what they were doing at first. But when the screaming started, these kids knew very well that the baby was suffering, and they still did nothing. And that is only one example.
People, both children and adults, inflicting pain on animals, for no use whatever. Trophy hunting. People throwing their garbage all over the place, trashing their neighborhoods, painting graffiti tags on walls. People being obnoxious and rude to others for no other reason than they can do it. And so on, and so forth....
So, what do you think, do people have an innate inclination to evil, or are they fundamentally good, but sometimes misguided creatures?
You don't believe the story of the Fall of Adam, yet you believe human beings are evil?
Except that God gave them the ability to choose. They chose to rebel.
Do you think this surprised God? Did he not know what choice they would make? Is The Bible wrong, and God doesn't actually know us and our fates?
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