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Old 12-16-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,759 posts, read 13,292,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Condemning that infant once again, because even god-in-that-tiny-box created infants to be wicked, evil sinful people..
That is because fundamentalist Christianity has a thing called "positional truth". Righteousness is imputed, not acted out. If you bring about world peace and a cure to cancer and give your life for someone else, all that righteousness is nothing but filthy rags to god and you will burn in hell unless you have accepted GOD's righteousness ON YOUR BEHALF. But if you cause world wars and new diseases and use hostages as human shields, but repent at the end, THAT is righteousness enough for the fundamentalist god.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,082 posts, read 83,946,203 times
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I am not by nature a "nice" person, although most people seem to think I am. That is one of the reasons I embrace the basic tenet of Christianity, to love and care about others, because I have to work so hard to be that type of person. I want to be different from who I am at my base, and that takes a conscious effort.

I don't consider myself an EVIL person, because I have no desire to harm anyone else...except for one time in my life. I was married, my husband was an ordained alkie/druggie/gambling addict, he was mean and violent and threatening and destroying my life and that of our daughter, and it seemed to me that his death would be the only solution to the problem. I figured he would die sooner or later of either physical problems brought on by his habits, or a drug overdose, or be killed by the loan shark. I fantasized about what I would wear at the funeral.

But he wouldn't die. And then...I went from wishing him dead to musing about how I could make it happen. And that's how evil can begin and it could have begun in me. I went from being afraid of him and what he would do to being afraid of what I might do.

Circumstances worked out, and he was removed from my home. He got somewhat better and we are civil, even friendly nowadays. But I have to live with the knowledge that I have it in me to possibly kill somebody.

Am I fundamentally evil?
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,680 posts, read 2,938,012 times
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Jealousy and envy are green eyed monsters that bring out the absolute worst in a very large percentage of people.

When I built a 2400 square foot pole bard and lived in the trailer, everyone was helpful and friendly. Every year I added a large wing to it. Now it stands at over 8000 square feet and looks pretty good.

I can't hardly describe how much friends, neighbors, and acquaintances have changed over that time. A lot of them are downright hateful. Instead of giving me "friendship deals" a lot of them ..... oh never mind.

I'm poor but I "look" a little bit rich because I found a lot of deals on toys and kept them. Also built my own huge place finding gigantic bargains on almost everything. Talk about bringing out the ugly side of human nature. Now I spend almost everything on security.

Robinhood became a folk hero by stealing from the rich and re-distributing. A lot of people think that is fine....or better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Norne View Post
Humor translates badly over the internet. And some people do indeed hate those who are able to realize their dreams and live the way they want, not the way "society" tells them. It's called envy.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,082 posts, read 83,946,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
That is because fundamentalist Christianity has a thing called "positional truth". Righteousness is imputed, not acted out. If you bring about world peace and a cure to cancer and give your life for someone else, all that righteousness is nothing but filthy rags to god and you will burn in hell unless you have accepted GOD's righteousness ON YOUR BEHALF. But if you cause world wars and new diseases and use hostages as human shields, but repent at the end, THAT is righteousness enough for the fundamentalist god.
That type of belief is a simple-minded crock. IMO, of course.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Hamburg, Deutschland
1,248 posts, read 818,137 times
Reputation: 1915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I am not by nature a "nice" person, although most people seem to think I am. That is one of the reasons I embrace the basic tenet of Christianity, to love and care about others, because I have to work so hard to be that type of person. I want to be different from who I am at my base, and that takes a conscious effort.

I don't consider myself an EVIL person, because I have no desire to harm anyone else...except for one time in my life. I was married, my husband was an ordained alkie/druggie/gambling addict, he was mean and violent and threatening and destroying my life and that of our daughter, and it seemed to me that his death would be the only solution to the problem. I figured he would die sooner or later of either physical problems brought on by his habits, or a drug overdose, or be killed by the loan shark. I fantasized about what I would wear at the funeral.

But he wouldn't die. And then...I went from wishing him dead to musing about how I could make it happen. And that's how evil can begin and it could have begun in me. I went from being afraid of him and what he would do to being afraid of what I might do.

Circumstances worked out, and he was removed from my home. He got somewhat better and we are civil, even friendly nowadays. But I have to live with the knowledge that I have it in me to possibly kill somebody.

Am I fundamentally evil?
No, you are not. Your reaction was self-defense, it is absolutely natural. Your ex-husband is. Nobody and no circumstances made him treat you like he did. He did it because he wanted to. That, I believe, is evil, and that is also the difference between humans and other species. Other animals hurt others because their survival instinct tells them to. Humans hurt because they choose to.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,680 posts, read 2,938,012 times
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Very well put. It is still shocking to consider what happened to Germans and Germany after over a decade of a back breaking economy. This is not an important lesson about Germans. It is THE LESSON about humanity. We are largely one social breakdown from being the worst animals on the planet.

This country happens to be a powder keg in my opinion. But that is another subject...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
People take a defensive stance when society breaks down to the point where moral codes are not enforced.

If you examine the places where the most egregious disenfranchisement or even mass killings have taken place, they are concentrated in failed or annihilated states which are essentially in a state of anarchy. Even Stalinist Russia can be seen as a state that selectively used lawlessness to achieve its ends. Their Gulags, and Hitler's concentration camps, and Pol Pot's killing fields were areas exempt from the larger society and its laws and taboos.

I don't think this is because humans are waiting for an excuse to get away with anything they can. I think it is because when the "law of the jungle" applies even partially, people hedge their bets. If your neighbor was a Jew in a country occupied by Nazi Germany, his property would be confiscated and the neighbor and his family would disappear into a killing field or concentration camp. The property would be taken either by the Reich or it might be up for grabs by whoever -- such as given to whoever turned them in as Jews. In this situation it's plain that anyone the state arbitrarily decides is its enemy is subject to confiscation -- state-sanctioned theft. Meanwhile the economy tanks and food supplies become squirrelly. You start to wonder how you are going to feed your family. And as such you could really, really use more arable land, the foodstocks in other people's houses -- and you start to rationalize. Well Vlad down the lane here looks kind of Jewish and he has quite a larder and I've never liked him anyway. If I don't denounce him as Jewish someone else will. And so the rationalizations roll.

Society can bring out either the best or the worst in people. Most stable societies are civil societies that do a pretty good job of bringing out the best in people. When those societies break down, then many more people become their worst selves. It makes sense; we are social creatures and are reinforced by belonging to the group and we belong by conforming to its mores.

The other side of the coin is that not everyone succumbs to the pack mentality. Every fourth person or so will see past their immediate needs and know that they could not live with themselves if they took a neighbor's property and consigned them to torture and worse -- or if they turned away one person asking them for shelter and protection -- no matter what the risks. And there are plenty of heroic tales along those lines, too.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Hamburg, Deutschland
1,248 posts, read 818,137 times
Reputation: 1915
Just why the hell does everyone keep picking on Germans? Are Germans really the only people in history who ever did anything bad?
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,082 posts, read 83,946,203 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norne View Post
Just why the hell does everyone keep picking on Germans? Are Germans really the only people in history who ever did anything bad?
Of course not, but it's something that happened within living memory and it's evil that was perpetuated by those nice white people who were supposed to be more civil and advanced than some of the others on the planet.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Georgia
3,987 posts, read 2,092,278 times
Reputation: 3106
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I disagree.

1. Children know how to be curious about everything naturally - without realizing which of those things could hurt them/others.
2. Children know how to be stubborn...because they are not yet mature enough to see the bigger picture; to them, "now" is "now" and everything "now" is of ultra importance.
3. Children know how to be self-centered naturally. Again, this is down to self-preservation, when diluted to its source. (IMO.)
4. Children have immature minds and emotions, and react in ways that we, as adults, see as overreaction and frequently mystifying (i.e. the child who throws a blue-faced tantrum because the green beans on her plate touched the chicken).

Children need to be taught safety and societal rules (for the given society they're in - this is changeable from locale to locale) but not to "do good"...in fact children do "good" in many ways "naturally" (or biologically, to cement ties, perhaps?), i.e. "share" their cereal milk with the cat, hug one another and other things we see as very sweet. Where they have to be taught to "do good" boils down more to encouraging them to mature and look outside themselves - something that happens in a societal species anyway but does need stimulation in order to happen properly - and to keep control of their emotions, yes.

Sure, all this combined makes them look like little demons to us but NONE of the above, generally, is down to inherent evil or even inherent "lack of good". Your child is not battling you over bathtime because she enjoys watching your spirit crumble or something.
We're born with a sin nature.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,021,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
We're born with a sin nature.
Balderdash.

Another poor soul who's been brainwashed by a bible.
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