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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,916,433 times
Reputation: 4561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
You haven't pointed out "facts." The Hindu official who traveled with her for 23 years has pointed out facts because she was with her.
What you've done, cupper, is fallen into a Eusebius type argument similar to his about God creating earth in six days. Your argument may have a touch of reality to it, but it is a long way from describing the woman as a "nun from hell." There are many Catholics who would tell you all the nuns from hell were assigned to Catholic schools.
From the constant flow of threads you start, it appears there is something going on deep inside you--almost as if you are afraid some christian will be everything they claim or that is claimed about them.
I've never swallowed overly devoted christian evangelists on TV. I'm not a great defender of the kind of christianity bought into by people wishing to practice bigotry or wave guns around in the name of Jesus. It is repulsive. At the same time, I'm willing to give a nod to those who aren't afraid to live in poverty themselves and who attempt, even in flawed manner, to do the work of Jesus with regard to the poor and disenfranchised.
I ask you the same thing I did mordant. Why do the Hindus she "exploited" according to your "reliable" source love her so much. Why was it Hindus that first honored her with recognition and awards--not western civilization. Oppressed people have a habit of standing up and telling the truth when the oppression is lifted.
Your claim is simply reminiscent of someone NOT accepting the facts rather than exposing them. And don't think for a moment I believe she was an angel from heaven. She was a flawed human who did what she felt was her very best. But then, from your many original posts, I think you simply believe that ANY christian accomplishing good in the world somehow denigrates your own lack of belief. Frankly, that is between you and God, or you and your inner self.
I'm not going to offer more on MT. She's dead now. But you are alive, but apparently not that well deep inside. That's what bothers me.
This thread has exposed more of who you are than it has about Mother Theresa, and I'm very sorry to see that coming from an otherwise sharp person.
Don't close your minds. Hitchens long ago pointed out many of the sane issues.
What purpose does it serve now to denigrate her? How is your life, my life, or that of anybody else better served?
I think we are all better served by not putting people on a pedestal to the extent MT is. As you point out, she was not perfect and people should not consider her or her work or her promotion of suffering as a privilege as somehow untouchable in terms of dissent, criticism or debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
My wife traces her lineage to one David Crockett of Alamo fame. The stories around him are certainly embellished--and there were times in war where he was truly a murdering bastard, but that doesn't mean the overall picture is polluted.
I think people at least realize he has become the stuff of legend, even myth -- and that he was in fact just another flawed human being. I don't know that I'm seeing that about MT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Like all human beings MT was flawed. But you and cupper have an expectation of her that she be a financial guru, a top administrative manager, a superb supervisor, and a licensed physician---all things you mistakenly believe should be prevalent in "sainthood" status.
Maybe you have me confused with someone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
I think she was a good woman who tried to help those she found. Sometimes it probably went well and sometimes not so much. She was actually living in a status of poverty herself regardless of the amount of money received in the last quarter of her life--it certainly wasn't there before that.
That is a far more measured statement than most of the ones I'm hearing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
There are plenty of "christians" living now to point fingers at--more than a few who seek to cash in on Jesus. I'm quite happy to get on that bandwagon. But this woman lived most of her life in Calcutta for God's sake--not a lap of luxury. You might want to watch "Slumdog Millionaire" to get an idea of how the majority of people in India live. She certainly knew first hand. Mother Theresa was not a woman of unshakable faith. She was racked with doubt. Anyone trying to serve God honestly always is. But they continue trying to the best of their abilities.
I have watched Slum Dog Millionaire and understand the situation as much as I can without living in India or having grown up there.
I tend to take a dimmer view of MT than you, perhaps because I see her attachment to suffering as ennobling to be a great evil, one of the fundamental ones abroad in the world. People who promote that notion seldom MEAN any harm, but manage to cause it anyway. I do not like that she didn't, and apparently the organization she left behind still doesn't, take the opportunity to provide morphine where appropriate, for example. I think it's wonderful that she lived with and touched lepers and broke through that ridiculous social barrier; I don't like that she didn't lift people OUT of poverty by getting at root causes and did not even follow through on the medical side to bring her hospice care up to decent standards.
Bottom line MT was a well meaning person who did some good, some indifferent, and some bad things ... who is venerated as if she did nothing remarkable that was indifferent or bad, and primarily BECAUSE she fits so well with the twisted notions of the RCC on suffering and want and their relation to virtue.
Bottom line MT was a well meaning person who did some good, some indifferent, and some bad things ... who is venerated as if she did nothing remarkable that was indifferent or bad, and primarily BECAUSE she fits so well with the twisted notions of the RCC on suffering and want and their relation to virtue.
There have been numerous posts on this forum from non-Catholic fundamentalists who believe living in want and suffering (especially while dying) is a virtue.
It's hardly something only Catholics believe. In fact.... I've yet to read a post from a Catholic saying, "My old granny was riddled with cancer and refused pain medication because she wanted to suffer like the Lord suffered on the cross. We read the Bible to her instead." I have read that story from a Bible believing CD fundamentalist.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 12-21-2015 at 09:12 PM..
There seems to be an element in society that seeks to destroy any inspirational beliefs about prominent figures in the name of truthful exposure of their human side. My questions have always been "What do they seek to accomplish?? What ultimate Good do they seek to perpetuate?? How is society inspired to be better by these derogatory efforts??? How are we made better by knowing Abe Lincoln was an a$$hat, etc.???
Of what consequence is this NOW?? She is DEAD!!!What is your goal here? How will it improve society, inspire and make things better???
There is no way to know that given what was the actual alternative for those she cared for which was NO care. Besides, She is DEAD!!!
You are the one who said we should focus on outcomes. The outcome of the myth of MT has been and is a positive inspirational one. You seem bothered by this and seek to demolish it. Why???
But she is DEAD!!! How is scrutinizing her to be used to make things better given that her image is such a positive and inspirational one already???? I have no disagreement about the evil hierarchy in the RCC and its history of evil. Why focus on MT???? You want to disempower and disenfranchise all religions and make them subject to secular law and authority, fine. Make that your campaign. Trashing a positive icon is NOT a positive goal. Since you are not a member and do not believe in anything about the RCC, what conceivable difference does it make to you who they make a saint????
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
The PR machine has virtually deified mother Teresa, to the point that if anyone dare points out that there are issues and that many questions of het ethical behavior exist, those people are castigated.
And deservedly so. How is this derogation of a positive icon making things better. She is DEAD! At least, her legacy is an inspirational one that may serve to elevate the human consciousness to address the neglected. What will your derogation of her memory elevate???
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
You sound exactly like the Christian fundamentalists on this forum. They complain about being castigated for saying unpopular things too. They too like to paint themselves as being the brave people who "dare" to point things out. Especially the followers of the aptly-named Slick. You aren't becoming a fan of the aptly-named Slick are you cupper? Because you're sounding like one.
Right down to complaining about the Catholic Church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
The difference is that I am pointing out facts. Not myths. You're all welcome to have your own beliefs, you're not welcome to have your own facts.
NO YOU ARE NOT! You have NOT pointed out a single actual fact. You have pointed to opinions and accusations which are far from facts. I agree with Dew, you have joined the ranks of the fundamentalists, just on the other side.
I agree with Dew, you have joined the ranks of the fundamentalists, just on the other side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
From the constant flow of threads you start, it appears there is something going on deep inside you--almost as if you are afraid some christian will be everything they claim or that is claimed about them.
...from your many original posts, I think you simply believe that ANY christian accomplishing good in the world somehow denigrates your own lack of belief. ...you are alive, but apparently not that well deep inside. That's what bothers me...This thread has exposed more of who you are than it has about Mother Theresa, and I'm very sorry to see that ....
they are right cupper (Dew and Mystic and Jerz and Warden)
you have become that which you attack
that which you focus on you become
right before our very eyes
Thank you, darling Mystic. ... this whole thing has me in tears and the hard old B I am...that takes a lot.
I just hope we can cut this woman's memory some slack, and see some good in the world...that's all.
i keep coming back to this post
i love this post because it has so much heart
this is what it reminds me of: when I was 6 years old and said something happy about one of my dolls, and my father and brother exploded into rage (nothing new there) and shouted the doll is not real it's just a stupid hunk of cloth and yarn and it's not even a pretty doll it is fat and ugly and has a big green head. it must have been pretty bad because my mom spoke up and said that's enough, and she hardly ever spoke up, and they kept yelling "but it's the truth. it's a fact. it's not real. i am right. i am telling the truth."
it is a mean and cruel mindset that claims it is "telling the truth" when really it can not bear seeing goodness and kindness, and it seeks to destroy that joy and happiness and goodness by attacking.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-22-2015 at 01:10 AM..
The difference is that I am pointing out facts. Not myths. You're all welcome to have your own beliefs, you're not welcome to have your own facts.
The facts you imply are the rantings of malcontents and bs'ers that can manipulate stories to cast negative aspersions on any one,consisting of mostly allegations/hearsay and opinion. Case in point= https://www.google.ca/#safe=active&q=Santa+is+evil
Mother Teresa spent a lifetime helping the poor in many ways and ultimately did a lot more right than she did wrong,to now label her work and efforts as nothing but the work of the devil and that she is a witch speaks to the rather vacuous nature of this topic.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,916,433 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
......
NO YOU ARE NOT! You have NOT pointed out a single actual fact. You have pointed to opinions and accusations which are far from facts. I agree with Dew, you have joined the ranks of the fundamentalists, just on the other side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101
The facts you imply are the rantings of malcontents and bs'ers that can manipulate stories to cast negative aspersions on any one,consisting of mostly allegations/hearsay and opinion. Case in point= https://www.google.ca/#safe=active&q=Santa+is+evil
Mother Teresa spent a lifetime helping the poor in many ways and ultimately did a lot more right than she did wrong,to now label her work and efforts as nothing but the work of the devil and that she is a witch speaks to the rather vacuous nature of this topic.
I listed a number of facts, which nobody has chosen to address. Perhaps it is too complicated to produce a list.
Let's just deal with one issue. Nobody denies that Mother Teresa raised multiple millions of dollars.
As such, there's certainly would have been funds enough to supply sterilized needles.
Your thoughts would be more respectable if you had a solid "follow the money" link. Until then, I'll give her the benefit of doubt.
You also are unable to explain why the tens of thousands of Hindus loved her passionately while she "cheated" them.
Was she a "saint?" Not in my book. Nobody is--and I mean nobody. Want to know if a child is abused? Try asking the child if he/she wants to be around the one who abused them. Her "children" adored her. The Hindu government official who was with her for 23 years (how long were those critics walking in her shadow?--Never) states she was genuinely concerned for the people in her adopted nation. Yet you chose as factual a bunch of reports of people who didn't reside with her or follow her through the streets.
For my money, mordant, you are the one choosing to accept as fact the same kind of story that Pat Robertson is fond of making up.
What purpose does it serve now to denigrate her? How is your life, my life, or that of anybody else better served?
My wife traces her lineage to one David Crockett of Alamo fame. The stories around him are certainly embellished--and there were times in war where he was truly a murdering bastard, but that doesn't mean the overall picture is polluted.
Like all human beings MT was flawed. But you and cupper have an expectation of her that she be a financial guru, a top administrative manager, a superb supervisor, and a licensed physician---all things you mistakenly believe should be prevalent in "sainthood" status.
I think she was a good woman who tried to help those she found. Sometimes it probably went well and sometimes not so much. She was actually living in a status of poverty herself regardless of the amount of money received in the last quarter of her life--it certainly wasn't there before that.
There are plenty of "christians" living now to point fingers at--more than a few who seek to cash in on Jesus. I'm quite happy to get on that bandwagon. But this woman lived most of her life in Calcutta for God's sake--not a lap of luxury. You might want to watch "Slumdog Millionaire" to get an idea of how the majority of people in India live. She certainly knew first hand. Mother Theresa was not a woman of unshakable faith. She was racked with doubt. Anyone trying to serve God honestly always is. But they continue trying to the best of their abilities.
No, no, no. We already did the motivation being irrelevant with the Pol pot analogy. We can do the one about how people who get abused by rulers do love their abuser - of they are indoctrinated to. Poor conditions in Calcutta (I think Kolkata, now) no more validate the results of her exploitative maladministration than the poverty of Bangladesh makes the brothel village there ok or excusable.
And of course you have a point - she tried to achieve something and perhaps did. But the point really is that it was nothing like the hype about what a wonderful result. The Indian authorities and Vatican as well as the public accepted that it was not only a horror because of lack of ability but because of her religious mindset.
That should draw a line under Mother Theresa a shining example of Catholic interference and bungling. It is the idea of the vatican now wanting to canonize her when it knows very well she doesn't merit it and it is done purely as a publicity giimmick. If they drop the idea, i shall be glad to consign her and the wrongs she perpetrated to history.
It is significant that the only other responses are from those who feel obliged to leap to the support of religion. They can do no more than toss out kneejerk accusations of atheist bias, and loose talk of unfounded accusations. The Vatican accepted that they were not unfounded but true. Now they are apparently going to make her a saint when they know it isn't merited, purely because it is a handy publicity gimmick. If those people who are breaking a lance for the little creep would face the facts and loudly denounce this cynical publicity ploy, we atheists wouldn't have to do it.
The people who obstruct us are a ball and chain to truth and honesty and seem to have only one aim - prop up religion good bad or indifferent Islam aside, of course; The 'good' that does is of course irrelevant to the harm.
I won't go into the double -standard thinking, or 'we can't explain stockholm syndrome'. The appeal to positive discrimination..slumlord? How much better than living on the streets? And you can't expect him to provide homes for nothing..' It is easy to whitewash, so let the Vatican do its own whitewashing.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-22-2015 at 06:41 AM..
Reason: shouldn't get Too personal
they are right cupper (Dew and Mystic and Jerz and Warden)
you have become that which you attack
that which you focus on you become
right before our very eyes
It was obvious long ago. I noted it many, many times.
Some people are just dark and miserable...that is how they are.
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