Uhhh maybe they're both wrong? (hell, mythology, atheist, agnostic)
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But how can they both be wrong? Either a God exists or it doesn't, right?
Because they are based exclusive thinking. Either there's a creator God or the universe was from nothing. Either creation was in six days or there's nothing but evolution. And so on.
However, creationism doesn't hold up to modern science or logic. This makes it unworkable for the real world. In the real world, things grow, change, they evolve. Am I the same kid as I was long ago? Is my town the same as twenty years ago? No.
This is called matching beliefs with the real world, to discover if they work or not. Evolution works.
Using the same principle, we test the random "causality free" atheism (I have zero problem with atheism that accepts a cause other than deity/supernatural, but the idea that there is an exception to causality, ummm we'll see about that). So yea, I test this with my own life. If I do nothing, what tends to happen? Stagnation and decay. People move away who I know and love, people die, things suck. Trust me I've tried it for years. The only thing that seems to work is steadily working towards something. Which leads me to the next point. I'm a hobbyist game programmer. Without fail, even something random like weather has two components, the drawn graphics and the code that makes it display and do its thing. The wind blows because there are frames of tree and code that allows the condition (wind) to animate them. Yes I'm sure there seems to be completely random forces at work. But it's not.
So I'm going to tell you theist creator or something right? Hell no! I'm gonna tell you don't throw around this "universe from nothing" theory. It not only proves you don't understand the basic laws of science but it makes you look like an idiot. The following are a list of theories that work:
1. Rational atheism. The universe has always existed (nix on the created from nothing approach) and is governed by strict laws of gravity, force, and creation/destruction (specifically that matter cannot be created or destroyed). This means that the big bang did not "create the universe" it expanded from a compressed group of atoms and randomly paired with working combinations according to these laws. Life came from successful complex combinations. Given this happens in chem class this doesn't fly in the face of any laws.
You could stop here and I'd be fine. Past this, you are some kind of theist.
2. Pantheism. Same as 1, but you believe that this identical to God. The God you think about is not a Self or personal deity but my like a force or law. Like the Tao.
3. Panentheism. Same as two except while God is part of the macrocosm (the universe), this also exists as part of the (us).
4. Mainstream theism. Some type of creation, but at least tries to work stuff logically rather than falling in fundie land.
5. Biocentrism. See 3. Now imagine if I said that rather than an outside source, we humans created our reality. Yup, stars and everything.
Ex nihilo (or "from nothing") creation doesn't work. Any more than straight up fully formed no evolve creation. I could show a dozen examples from science or my own life. We need a new model, something that is not either/or.
And if you need "evidence" I can show weather and time code for games. I've even coded seasons. Point is, you need a new theory. I don't care what you believe. But blatantly false theories are a pet peeve.
People don`t know God exist because they rule God out or are critics of believers and God or they are slackers and will want to go and find Jesus but are not willing to start ...then there are people who have no conviction or maybe to rich and have no need , or condemn to try to find Jesus , but Jesus is there and I have heard the spirit of Jesus call it slackers
You are ascribing attributes to atheism and evolution which are not correct.
Yes some atheists may believe the universe always existed but that isn't what makes them atheists. Just as some Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old isn't what makes them Christians.
Evolution Theory has nothing to do with creation or origin of the universe. That is simply the misinformation of creationism.
If we don't have proof, and also lack compelling evidence, then believing (not merely speculating) in something is jumping to a conclusion without justification. People are free to do so but people are equally free to dismiss the views and morality espoused by those who do.
People don`t know God exist because they rule God out or are critics of believers and God or they are slackers and will want to go and find Jesus but are not willing to start ...then there are people who have no conviction or maybe to rich and have no need , or condemn to try to find Jesus , but Jesus is there and I have heard the spirit of Jesus call it slackers
That's weird because just the other day I heard Jesus saying that he wished all these people would stop using his name in vain to impose their self-righteous opinions on everybody.
But how can they both be wrong? Either a God exists or it doesn't, right?
Because they are based exclusive thinking. Either there's a creator God or the universe was from nothing. Either creation was in six days or there's nothing but evolution. And so on.
However, creationism doesn't hold up to modern science or logic. This makes it unworkable for the real world. In the real world, things grow, change, they evolve. Am I the same kid as I was long ago? Is my town the same as twenty years ago? No.
This is called matching beliefs with the real world, to discover if they work or not. Evolution works.
Using the same principle, we test the random "causality free" atheism (I have zero problem with atheism that accepts a cause other than deity/supernatural, but the idea that there is an exception to causality, ummm we'll see about that). So yea, I test this with my own life. If I do nothing, what tends to happen? Stagnation and decay. People move away who I know and love, people die, things suck. Trust me I've tried it for years. The only thing that seems to work is steadily working towards something. Which leads me to the next point. I'm a hobbyist game programmer. Without fail, even something random like weather has two components, the drawn graphics and the code that makes it display and do its thing. The wind blows because there are frames of tree and code that allows the condition (wind) to animate them. Yes I'm sure there seems to be completely random forces at work. But it's not.
So I'm going to tell you theist creator or something right? Hell no! I'm gonna tell you don't throw around this "universe from nothing" theory. It not only proves you don't understand the basic laws of science but it makes you look like an idiot. The following are a list of theories that work:
1. Rational atheism. The universe has always existed (nix on the created from nothing approach) and is governed by strict laws of gravity, force, and creation/destruction (specifically that matter cannot be created or destroyed). This means that the big bang did not "create the universe" it expanded from a compressed group of atoms and randomly paired with working combinations according to these laws. Life came from successful complex combinations. Given this happens in chem class this doesn't fly in the face of any laws.
You could stop here and I'd be fine. Past this, you are some kind of theist.
2. Pantheism. Same as 1, but you believe that this identical to God. The God you think about is not a Self or personal deity but my like a force or law. Like the Tao.
3. Panentheism. Same as two except while God is part of the macrocosm (the universe), this also exists as part of the (us).
4. Mainstream theism. Some type of creation, but at least tries to work stuff logically rather than falling in fundie land.
5. Biocentrism. See 3. Now imagine if I said that rather than an outside source, we humans created our reality. Yup, stars and everything.
Ex nihilo (or "from nothing") creation doesn't work. Any more than straight up fully formed no evolve creation. I could show a dozen examples from science or my own life. We need a new model, something that is not either/or.
And if you need "evidence" I can show weather and time code for games. I've even coded seasons. Point is, you need a new theory. I don't care what you believe. But blatantly false theories are a pet peeve.
Sorry. wrong on both counts. Past here, only to look at the responses. I am still an atheist. That has to be the most hopeless trick for making atheists think they are believers I have ever seen.
And your personal interpretation of life as sucking tells us only something about you; it tells you nothing about us.
I suggest you wad and bin that one and start with a fresh sheet of paper.
Followed closely by trying to defend what you claim is a religion of love by disparaging people who don't buy into your chosen mythology.
Damn! What is Done is undone. That post is your present to me this Yuletide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinEden99
That's weird because just the other day I heard Jesus saying that he wished all these people would stop using his name in vain to impose their self-righteous opinions on everybody.
Yes I definitely heard the voice of Jesus in my head telling me that my atheist views were perfectly justified.
I'm sorry I posted this. The last thing I want is Jesus talk. This is about cutting through bull**** to find common ground between atheism and theism.
Look on the bright side. This is a fun thread, despite the crummy OP.
And there already is common ground between atheism and theism. It is called irreligion. More and more are signing up as "None" Theist, agnostic and atheist alike, whether they buy into a god of some sort, don't buy into a god or some sort or are not sure what they buy into, they are all sure that religion is bullcrap and they are all drinking in the same tent under the flag of the clones..I mean the Nones.
Ps. My mate Trout, who is still patiently waiting for the first chapter of my book (I am still waiting for the advance) is a definite sortagod -theist, but our disagreement over the spoor of God in life the Universe and everything is academic, though definite, disagreement and we never quarrel about anything.
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That post is your present to me this Yuletide.
