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Yeah, that's something I didn't consider - fundamentalists are a minority. Considering that about 50% of the U.S. population believes in creationism, I'm surprised they only compose 25%.
I would seriously doubt that statistic, unless the question had been worded in an extremely vague manner, so as to include the beliefs of all other theists as well.
I am not too worked up about what 50% of people will claim to "believe" depending on how a question is phrased, it is probably lower than that if people are really pressed but even if it's not, it is unsurprising to me that creationist ideation has some currency with other than YECs. Most people frankly don't think much about it, beyond some children's Bible story book they have fond memories of and a desire not to be seen as douchebags for disparaging those stories with their aura of holiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle
Considering fundamentalists have lost most aspects of the 'culture war' I understand why so many 'feel' persecuted. But as we know subjective feeling is often contrary to objective evidence.
Well as a former fundamentalist I can tell you that a lot of what fundamentalists are used to is feeling like god's special snowflake. Nowhere but in fundamentalist religion is the monstrous arrogance of claiming to have a special relationship to the creator and sustainer of the universe so tolerated and even admired. It is supposed to be grace ("unmerited favor") but that is like crowing about inducing a beautiful and popular person to marry you when you yourself are homely and socially awkward.
Feeling persecuted is part of feeling special. As someone else, I think Captain Kirk's brother, has pointed out, True Believers are supposed to be in the minority -- the proud, the few.
So we don't really know who wrote any of that--we don't know that we aren't looking at the work of a student of Aristotle...except that what we do know of practices back then suggest that was most likely the case. That was certainly the case with Plato.
So if students of Jesus were the persons who actually wrote what He taught, that would be only par for the course of ancient teachers.
The earliest surviving copy of what Aristotle allegedly wrote (actually, what his students allegedly wrote) dates to the mid 9th century...1200 years after Aristotle. The earliest copies of the New Testament date to the mid second century...only 200 years after Jesus. And there are many more ancient copies of the New Testament...but only one of each of Aristotle's writings.
The gospels were based on oral tradition. Although oral tradition is not strong on details, it has been proven very reliable for themes--so much so that it has sometimes proven the only way to discover anything.
The most recent example is the discovery of the Franklin Expedition of 1846 by the Canadian navy (or coast guard or something) in 2008. The book, Unraveling the Franklin Mystery, was the result of private and public resources spent to discover the ships. All the scientific instruments in the world couldn't locate the wreckage from the discovery of the last physical message (written and placed under a pile of rocks) some fifty years after the two ships went missing. It was Intuit Eskimo oral tradition which the expedition finally accepted that led them to one of the two ships which lay in waters something like 500 miles from the last written message which had stated the ships were being left, and the crews starting an overland journey.
So, yes, oral tradition is effective in general, not always in detail. Just reading the OT one can see the blending of oral tradition in the two creation stories of Genesis. Both are different in detail, but obviously remarkably close in theme.
And, no, I am not a creationist. But I am a theist who accepts the overall theme of scripture--as in its separate books--not conflated into a single story line as is the tradition of too many christians. There are sixty-six books and probably another two dozen more individual oral accounts written down within those sixty-six books, and maybe several hundred or even thousand individual verse manipulations by following scribes. It is also why reading Scripture without an eye to textual and contextual criticism is a dangerous and foolish thing to do.
For more on the story of the Franklin the link below will provide a short read. The PBS hour long story was truly fascinating--and I was unaware of it until three or four months ago.
Quote:
Archeologist Dr. Doug Stenton, director of heritage for the Government of Nunavut, was aboard the vessel that made the discovery on Sunday. He says the team may not have found the ship 11 metres underwater without Inuit knowledge.
"It's very satisfying to see that testimony of Inuit who shared their knowledge of what happened to the wreck has been validated quite clearly," he said.
If something isn't credible like many of the stories in the Bible then they aren't likely to be true!
A lie is easily more credible than the truth. The truth is what it is. A lie is crafted to align with the presumptions and prejudices of the audience, deliberately created to be credible.
That's why it's been said, "Truth is stranger than fiction."
I am not too worked up about what 50% of people will claim to "believe" depending on how a question is phrased, it is probably lower than that if people are really pressed but even if it's not, it is unsurprising to me that creationist ideation has some currency with other than YECs. Most people frankly don't think much about it, beyond some children's Bible story book they have fond memories of and a desire not to be seen as douchebags for disparaging those stories with their aura of holiness.
Well as a former fundamentalist I can tell you that a lot of what fundamentalists are used to is feeling like god's special snowflake. Nowhere but in fundamentalist religion is the monstrous arrogance of claiming to have a special relationship to the creator and sustainer of the universe so tolerated and even admired. It is supposed to be grace ("unmerited favor") but that is like crowing about inducing a beautiful and popular person to marry you when you yourself are homely and socially awkward.
Feeling persecuted is part of feeling special. As someone else, I think Captain Kirk's brother, has pointed out, True Believers are supposed to be in the minority -- the proud, the few.
The part highlighted is EXACTLY the theme of Scripture. The problem is some see themselves as special while others of us are enlightened to see ourselves as no better than anyone else--and I mean anyone!!
The theme runs through the OT with Israel constantly being faithless while God, anthropomorphically, gets angry. But He always provides redemption. He is faithful. People rarely are--including foremost myself. No christian is any more "special" than any other person, theist or not. We all stand on common ground, alone within ourselves, in need of more than we are, and full of discontent even when we try to show the world we are anything but.
It is the theme of the NT as well, where God as seen in Jesus provides redemption. While most see Jesus as the sole method of salvation, some see God as judging men based on their knowledge and what they did with it in terms of their actions.
I am an action guy when it comes to obedience to be a Servant of Men. Beliefs are secondary. The reach for heaven is long and far. But if a man's reach does not exceed his grasp, what's a heaven for?
Didn't Josephus, Pliny the Younger ( who wrote to Emperor Trajan in reference to Christians ) and Tacitus refer to Jesus and his followers ?______
Who in the 1st century wrote that what the gospel writers wrote did Not happen ?
Doesn't Roman history show they wanted to get rid of Jesus' followers ?______
How could a fictional character have such a large following as to risk their very lives as the early Christians did ?
A PR campaign to legitimize a new religion I the most probable method of spreading this tale.
There is still no actual, verifiable proof that the bible jesus ever existed. A combination of other teachers, probably. Remember, people are gullible. If told the same story often enough it will come to be held as fact, without regard to the truth of it.
BTW, since you claim that all that was written has come to pass, list these things. Especially the fruition of the return of this man to walk the earth and save all the people. In the next generation. When did that happen?
Additional btw, the Romans wanted to stop the spread of this religion, not the person believed to have started it, which your Jesus never claimed he did or wanted to do.
I suspect our definition of her history is the same. Like most in my generation (especially since I'm a Vietnam era veteran myself), I despised Fonda.
Until she became a Christian. Now she's my sister.
A leopard that changes its spots is still a leopard. She now tries to spin what she did and was filmed doing to change her history. I will not buy it as she continues to display her elitism and disregard for those that she injured.
If you buy it, that is your decision. I do not buy it.
A leopard that changes its spots is still a leopard. She now tries to spin what she did and was filmed doing to change her history. I will not buy it as she continues to display her elitism and disregard for those that she injured.
If you buy it, that is your decision. I do not buy it.
So it's not possible to be "saved" and to change (nope, elitism is no signal of not being Christian, sorry...in fact it seems quite rampant among Christians and is defended in all manner of ways)? (p.s. Please prove to us she "disregards" those she "inured," have you seen inside her heart? Interesting.)
Anyway. MORE great news, I thought the whole "the Bible is kind of just a guideline for those who kinda need it" mention on another thread was going to be the only relief revelation today! But now that we know it's impossible for a person to convert, change, see the light, whatever you want to call coming to Jesus, every current Christian can STOP TRYING to convert/convince/spread the Good News to anyone, as it is a completely useless exercise.
Whew. Good gosh but this lightens the load of the rest of the world who doesn't feel like constantly hearing it any more.
I just don't understand why we cannot tell people about how good God is and how he can help people who have a relationship with him without people saying we are cramming our beliefs down their throat. Christians just want to help. I think some go overboard but if a person has a rough time in their life I try to tell them to pray and trust God. Nowadays, you can't even go public with your beliefs yet it is ok for people to say that they don't believe in God. This is why I am scared to try to convince people to come to God. Folks get so upset.
So, you're upset that some people are allowed to say they do not believe in God? Really? That's a big difference than trying to convert someone and "telling" them to pray. You're talking apples and oranges.
Last edited by thenewtexan; 12-31-2015 at 07:22 PM..
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