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Most are a lost cause, but not all ... after all, you're talking to a deconvert.
Which is amazing and good for you to have awaken!
Curious what was the trigger for your deconversion?
What I meant is any time I stumble upon a narrow fundy mind...I don't waste anymore of my time trying to convince them of who I am. They are a lost cause and not worthy of me or my time.
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Originally Posted by mordant
I am not talking about trying to be liked, but violating stereotypes.
Me neither...I could care less what they think about me or anything else for that matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
A couple of times in this space someone has mentioned that by the time some theist found out they were an atheist, they were amazed ("but ... you're such a nice person!") That is what I'm after, to disturb people's slumber.
I figure it's their journey and if they want to go through life in a slumber then I see it as the path they chose...in other words it's their problem not mine...Thankfully! All I can do is plant seeds along my journey through life. If they sprout great if they don't...oh well at least I planted the seed.
See that's the uselessness of saying that god is everything. Great if that's what floats your boat. I have no desire to be your buzzkill. But it's a nondescript and useless term to apply to everything. Which conveniently enough we've already established a word for. ..everything.
You are creating a communication barrier where there doesn't need to be one. We have language specifically because we cant rely on interpretation of grunts. If you think god is some sort of undefined material or membrane which permeates reality, then just say that. If you think god is some sort of collective sentience which you can't define the materials of then say that. But I, and most people on the planet, don't know how to even speak to somebody who uses useless terminology like god is everything. Ok...then your concept of God doesn't change anything about how we view reality. It's just an additional term to sift through, which is unhelpful at best.
No...you, like many, are still bogged down in relating "God" to Religious Deities and the attributes that have been assigned to them in the associated stories.
Your proclamation about how "most people" are able to perceive God is just a illogical appeal to popularity/majority....and, in fact, fails that as well since Pantheism and the "God Is All" concept is one of the most prolific ever.
Your argument is no different than upon my referring to firefighters and soldiers as "Heros" as per my perception of them...instead of accepting that as my perception, and reasonable & logical....you ask, "Are they invulnerable?", "Can they fly?", ""Can they leap tall buildings?" "Because most people on the planet don't know how to speak to somebody that uses terminology like Heros are every person that acts with bravery.".
You say this on the basis that there are stories of Superman, Batman, etc, who are widely known as storied Heros that possess these attributes, and on that basis, you assign yourself as some Sovereign Authority to demand all heros require those attributes to be defined "Heros".
You also advance that oft proffered argument that I am changing the word "Everything" to "God". When I just explained that "God" is a TITLE that is assigned to that which is perceived as such.
Just as "Firefighter" and "Soldier" is not being changed to "Hero", but "Hero" is added as a TITLE to them..."God" is a TITLE given by Pantheists to Everything.
Only those actually or willfully ignorant would claim this as difficult to comprehend...or argue that there is some kind of "changing", "relabeling", or "renaming" of words being done.
Just substitute in the word Element for Gldnrule's God. Problem solved!
Just substitute in the word Energy for Gldnrule's God. Problem solved!
I don't "substitute" the word God for Energy. I TITLE all energy/matter "God"...as per my perception of it as God.
So, no...it would not solve "the problem"...it would only perpetuate it.
I don't "substitute" the word God for Energy. I TITLE all energy/matter "God"...as per my perception of it as God.
So, no...it would not solve "the problem"...it would only perpetuate it.
BUT everything as we know it, is just elements and energy...which are not gods.
I just want to know if my views on a deity is more agnostic or atheistic in essence.
I don't believe in a god. I think his existence is highly unlikely. But I can't say that I "know" that deities doesn't exist. I have no knowledge on that. However, the gods that humans have written about (Abrahamic, Hindu, Sikh) definitely don't exist. I believe that we made them up the same way we made up fairies, elves and santa. With that being said, I can't say that a deistic god is certainly nonexistent.
So what do these views make me within the agnostic-atheist scale?
First off, I wouldn't advise anyone to label themselves. Others are too good at doing that for us. You've researched it and still aren't sure what label to give yourself; others are quick to provide you with a label, but as you see, the labels vary. The meaning of words change, sometimes over centuries, sometimes over years, but they do change. Some words also mean different things to different people.
However, you asked so I'll give you my opinion.
Nobody knows there's a God, and nobody knows there isn't one. Those who say they know there is or isn't are either lying (possibly to themselves as well as others) or ignorant. If there is a God, He's chosen to leave it up to us to believe or not, as He could easily prove there is one.
So you either believe there is (believer), believe there is not (atheist), or have not yet formed your beliefs on whether there is or isn't (agnostic).
You sound like an atheist to me, one who is confused. ("the gods that humans have written about (Abrahamic, Hindu, Sikh) definitely don't exist.") That's written as fact, but you have no fact to base it on, rather a belief. (I believe that we made them up the same way we made up fairies, elves and santa.")
"that being said, I can't say that a deistic god is certainly nonexistent." No one can honestly say it. No one knows with absolute, provable certainty.
1. You certainly are not a believer.
2. You have made up your mind in what you believe, so you're not agnostic.
3. You do not believe there is a god. You are an atheist -- one who is honest enough to admit that you can't prove the non-exisence of one. You'll believe it when it's proven to you. Well, that's not belief; that would then simply be knowledge.
Religious "belief" should be defined as accepting as fact that there is a god, not as an opinion or supposition, as I might say, "I believe I'm free next Sunday evening" or "I believe that's the ugliest hair-doo I've ever seen."
I don't. Don't know if there's a God or not. Think it terribly unlikely, see no evidence for it ... therefore don't believe it. But do I know? Nope. No more than I know there are no tooth fairies or leprechauns. Don't believe in them either, however.
If we push the philosophical envelope to the extreme, there are two main types of unknown, i.e.
1. The unknown that is possible
2. The unknown that is impossible.
1. The unknown that is possible
The possible unknowns are those that are possible to be tested and verified when the evidence is available.
For example, human-liked aliens somewhere in the universe are unknown but they are a possibility because we can verify their human like nature, physical qualities, their location in space and time.
Tooth fairies, leprechauns are also a possibility depending on how we define them, e.g. if anthropomorphic and human-like from somewhere in the universe.
Russell's flying tea pot in space is possible for human-liked aliens to have left them there or thrown out by some astronauts from the international space station.
Therefore all speculated unknown entities that can be tested and verified empirically are a possibility.
Perhaps I can be agnostic on all these unknown possibilities.
2. The unknown that is impossible.
The unknown that is impossible are those that cannot exists and thus there can be no evidence of them for testing and verifications.
For example, a square-circle cannot exists because it is a contradiction. Therefore regardless of how we speculate that we may find a square-circle somewhere out there in the universe. All entities and things that defy the Law of Non-Contradiction cannot exist anywhere and anytime.
If we push the philosophical envelope to the greater extreme one will be able to arrive at a conclusion the idea of a transcendental God is similar to a contradiction that is impossible to exists. [This require very sophisticated philosophizing of the terms 'idea' and 'transcendental'.]
Because God is a transcendental idea that is impossible to be real, it is impossible for God to exists and there is no possibility of it to be known at all, thus it is irrelevant to put it in the agnostic category.
The Question is Why God when it is an impossibility?
Now why the idea of a transcendental God emerged in the consciousness of the majority of humans is due to a very necessary fundamental psychological force and compulsion to deal with a subliminal* existential crisis/dilemma.
*Most theists do not really know why they are theistic but merely feel secure [saved] when they believe and put faith on a God to do whatever is necessary to get them out of a psychological hell hole.
I have no issue with theism [except for the inherently violent type] and I believe theism is a critical necessity [there are no other suitable-effective alternatives] for the majority of people AT PRESENT [not necessary future] in their present psychological state.
I just want to know if my views on a deity is more agnostic or atheistic in essence.
I don't believe in a god. I think his existence is highly unlikely. But I can't say that I "know" that deities doesn't exist. I have no knowledge on that. However, the gods that humans have written about (Abrahamic, Hindu, Sikh) definitely don't exist. I believe that we made them up the same way we made up fairies, elves and santa. With that being said, I can't say that a deistic god is certainly nonexistent.
So what do these views make me within the agnostic-atheist scale?
If you're unsure, you're agnostic.
Agnostic means literally "no" "knowledge" versus "no" "God."
BUT everything as we know it, is just elements and energy...which are not gods.
Not "Gods" to YOUR perception. But it is to others.
I gave the analogy: There are individuals, that though they are *just people*, ordinary men and women, boys and girls...I perceive them to be my "friends" and assign that title to them. These people may not be "friends" to YOU, or others...but that is no basis to say they are objectively *not friends*, and "just humans".
Because they *are* "friends" to ME, or others, they can now be reasonably and logically defined as "friends". And by and through my and others perception of them as " friends"...."friends" do, in fact, objectively exist.
And it would not only be ignorant, but arrogant and rude as well, to claim that just because they are not YOUR friends, or "friends" to most of the other people in the world...that they are *not* "friends", or beyond that, "friends" don't exist.
That All Matter/Energy is not "God" to you is inconsequential to it being "God"...as long as it is "God" to me or others. It is "God" to ME...that is all that is required for it to be "God". Even if no one else *but* me perceives it as God.
Agnostic means literally "no" "knowledge" versus "no" "God."
There is another perspective to being agnostic as a doubter.
People like Dawkins are a 1/8 agnostic which meant he is providing a 12.5% possibility for the existence of God. His limitation is he is not a philosopher and thus end up with such wavering stance on atheism.
Some could take a stance of 51% theistic and 49% agnostic, or another
could be 49% theistic and 51% agnostic.
That is why I do not prefer the term 'agnostic' which is opened to marginal mixed options and thus not philosophical refined.
I am 100% non-theistic within a 99.999....9% rational non-theistic framework and system.
But really, what's the point of the latter label? You could say that you can't know there aren't leprechauns. But no one takes pains to point out that, while they lack an affirmative belief in leprechauns, it's possible that there's some really short, really fast guys with Irish accents hanging out at the ends of rainbows. Yet many feel compelled to specifically hold that position vis-a-vis deities. That's not really indicative of any substantive difference between deities and leprechauns - it just reflects that even some of those who are inclined not to belief can't quite shake all of their emotional investment in the notion of a deity.
As such, 'agnostic' is really a word that has no practical necessity. It's no more useful than a word that points out that I can't be certain that the garden gnome next door doesn't occasionally animate and do handstands and cartwheels when no one is watching - for like 'agnostic', such a word would really just be about the person who needs it for reasons pertaining to themselves, not to reality.
Yes, I believe that I might be an agnostic-atheist. I hate labels too. But modern society seems to be obsessed with them, unfortunately. I wish that there was one label that basically cover those who merely have no religious beliefs, as opposed to the countless irreligious stances like "atheist", "agnostic", "apatheist", "skeptic", "freethinker", "secularist", "humanist", etc and etc. Too much segregation here, and even within nonbelievers...
I don't get the whole leprechaun and toothfairy comparison. We made them up the same way we did with the dragons, demons, Satan, Yahweh, etc. But a deistic god or some supreme being (that we know nothing of) is more convoluted than that. I wouldn't compare the "unbeknownst" to the characters we humans obviously have invented, if that makes sense.
Last edited by Ethereal; 01-05-2016 at 11:40 PM..
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All I can do is plant seeds along my journey through life. If they sprout great if they don't...oh well at least I planted the seed.
