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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,919,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
This flippancy itself places you as far down in my estimation as it is possible to go, cupper. You are either very young or just a very immature old person. The unacknowledged reality about addiction is that it is a psychological dysfunction first and foremost. Any substance-related physiological associations just aggravate or compound the condition. If a program can adjust the psychological dysfunction by altering the relevant psychological associations and elevate self-esteem, they can be effective. Physiological conditioning just complicates the withdrawal. Not everyone responds to the same type of therapy. Prejudging a therapy is counter-productive because there is no way to know what any specific individual will or will not respond to.
AA and Al-anon continue to call it a disease, which it is not,. Other than 6 out of the 12 steps involve some reference to either a higher power or God, all of their literature discusses that alcoholism is a disease.
Why ignore the peer-reviewed science which clearly shows how ineffective these 12 step programs really are?
Don't believe me? Let's go to what the science says. Unfortunately I can only give you abstracts, but it is important what those abstracts say.
The "disease concept" of alcoholism is not needed to justify medical intervention or a caring approach to those who are dependent on alcohol. There is a specific and a general version of the disease concept of alcoholism. The specific disease concept, associated mainly with the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, is contradicted by empirical evidence and unhelpful for preventive and treatment responses to problem drinking, especially for the effort to detect and modify problem drinking at an early stage.
More evidence that alcohol anonymous efficacy is low to non-existent despite claims to the contrary and despite the many anecdotal testimonies.
So don't give me grief that I'm pre judging the program. The evidence indicates that clearly it does not deliver what it purports to. Individual successes and exceptions do not make it a good program.
This flippancy itself places you as far down in my estimation as it is possible to go, cupper. You are either very young or just a very immature old person. The unacknowledged reality about addiction is that it is a psychological dysfunction first and foremost. Any substance-related physiological associations just aggravate or compound the condition. If a program can adjust the psychological dysfunction by altering the relevant psychological associations and elevate self-esteem, they can be effective. Physiological conditioning just complicates the withdrawal. Not everyone responds to the same type of therapy. Prejudging a therapy is counter-productive because there is no way to know what any specific individual will or will not respond to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3
So don't give me grief that I'm pre judging the program. The evidence indicates that clearly it does not deliver what it purports to. Individual successes and exceptions do not make it a good program.
The key to the success or failure of ANY therapy is ENTIRELY dependent on the INDIVIDUAL psychological dysfunction at the heart of the problem. Excluding ANY potential therapy on that basis is foolish. It works for SOME so that makes it a viable option. I will excuse your therapeutic ignorance because you apparently think it is based on solid science. It is NOT. There is no such thing as "solid science" in the psychological and psychiatric fields. The BEST they can do is predict to population statistics, AVERAGES and other measures of central tendency and dispersion. Their ability to predict to the individual level is non-existent except in the most extreme cases (tails of the distribution) and is subject to enormous therapist bias.
How about other entities like National Public Radio (NPR) and PBS television. Many of the arts are tax exempt. Oh, and the biggest one is Planned Parenthood, they have been caught stealing money from the government by double and triple billing.
I can name a lot more, why not stop those tax exemptions as well?
Obviously a different topic and not for this thread, but I back cupper up completely as to the actual overall effectiveness of the AA program.
Sure, some will give it credit. Some will give credit to a healer who patted their head. Success rate tells the story more than anecdote.
The folks I met at AA meetings were salt of the earth people trying to shake a huge monkey that grew heavier by the hour. Many had lost jobs, friends, houses, family and any semblance of self esteem. All they had left was each other, drinking bad coffee and smoking cigarettes (in those days) and supporting each other's daily, painful walk to sobriety in darkish church basements while sitting on stackable plywood chairs and hearing each other's stories.
I admired the hell out of each and every one of them.
How about other entities like National Public Radio (NPR) and PBS television. Many of the arts are tax exempt. Oh, and the biggest one is Planned Parenthood, they have been caught stealing money from the government by double and triple billing.
I can name a lot more, why not stop those tax exemptions as well?
We are talking about the Church paying property taxes. I object to your church not paying property taxes, like I pay. I would certainly support every organization paying property tax like I pay.
You are attempting to muddy the waters by making unsupported claims of fraud.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,919,895 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative
We are talking about the Church paying property taxes. I object to your church not paying property taxes, like I pay. I would certainly support every organization paying property tax like I pay.
You are attempting to muddy the waters by making unsupported claims of fraud.
Exactly, and that is the topic of this thread. Sorry I took part in the sidetrack, that should be a separate thread of anyone still wants to carry on the discussion of AA.
And? I know people that have had to sell their homes and move because they couldn't afford the property taxes of an area. Why should your church be given special treatment over them? Why should your church get special treatment over a business that would fold if they couldn't pay their taxes?
because our church is a non-profit that serves the community. We aren't just a business out to make money, nor are we individual home owners. I'm sorry if that bothers you.
because our church is a non-profit that serves the community. We aren't just a business out to make money, nor are we individual home owners. I'm sorry if that bothers you.
And around we go.
Why is it so hard for churches to show the actual charitable things they do and get a deduction, just like everyone else has to do? Why should I pay to support your club house when you don't have to show you actually do anything for the community?
ALL should pay taxes on property. ALL should pay taxes on income minus actual charitable expenditures.
Why do you feel that your club should be given special tax breaks that others don't get? Can I write off all of my income and have no property taxes for my beliefs? Can I claim that my house is where I practice my beliefs and pay not property tax? Can I have no income taxes simply by saying that I do good? Nope. Why should you get to do so?
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Very nicely said. That's my experience as well.
