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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,916,433 times
Reputation: 4561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angiesu
Churches don't have income. They are NON-profit. If you tax them then you have to tax ALL non-profit organizations. Think about that.
Nonprofits pay property tax in many jurisdictions. It's time for church to also contribute. One of the non profits I was treasurer for and on the board for years, pays almost $70,000 a year in property taxes.
Let's face it, what do religions really provide that is of any substance to society. Oh sure, to some people they provide some undefined spiritual guidance and solice, but that is undefined and does not help society in any way shape or form.
Smaller churches don't provide just spiritual guidance and solace. Many of them help people with monthly bills; utilities, doctor bills, groceries and supplies for repairs on homes at no expense. It takes money to do that. That money comes from donations by its parishioners. They hold events such as cookouts where the food is purchased by the church and its members to feed those who don't have much. They have food, clothes, and toy drives during the holidays in which they prepare boxes of said items to deliver to families in the community who would otherwise have nothing. Larger churches help with college tuition.
You're under the assumption that all churches are wealthy but they aren't. Many pastors and their spouse have outside jobs because their salary from the church isn't enough to thrive.
I don't expect people who don't attend church to know any of that but there's a lot of good done by smaller churches in this country. Allowing them to keep their exemption status is the right thing to do. Making them turn money over to the government won't help any more people than the voluntary help already being done by the church. Government would just use it for something less deserving.
Smaller churches don't provide just spiritual guidance and solace. Many of them help people with monthly bills; utilities, doctor bills, groceries and supplies for repairs on homes at no expense. It takes money to do that. That money comes from donations by its parishioners. They hold events such as cookouts where the food is purchased by the church and its members to feed those who don't have much. They have food, clothes, and toy drives during the holidays in which they prepare boxes of said items to deliver to families in the community who would otherwise have nothing. Larger churches help with college tuition.
You're under the assumption that all churches are wealthy but they aren't. Many pastors and their spouse have outside jobs because their salary from the church isn't enough to thrive.
I don't expect people who don't attend church to know any of that but there's a lot of good done by smaller churches in this country. Allowing them to keep their exemption status is the right thing to do. Making them turn money over to the government won't help any more people than the voluntary help already being done by the church. Government would just use it for something less deserving.
Good post, but you are wasting your time. I have already pointed all this out. It won't be addressed or acknowledged. The response will only be, "So you think it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services the churches receive?"
Then if you acknowledge that no, perhaps it isn't but a solution needs to be found that works for all without losing what the church does for the community, the response will again be, "So you think it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services the churches receive?"
All the others are contributing property taxes according to their ability as determined by the homes they choose to live in.
Why should churches get a pass on contributing anything to the common good?
Which includes zero property taxes for some corporations when the community wants to give them an incentive. And that is the problem with taxing anything that exists as a constitutional right: Government commonly uses taxation as a primary method of reward or coercion. That what "vice taxes" are all about. And that is the reason why "The power to tax is the power to destroy" was and still is the reason governments refrain from taxing churches.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,916,433 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereOnMars
Smaller churches don't provide just spiritual guidance and solace. Many of them help people with monthly bills; utilities, doctor bills, groceries and supplies for repairs on homes at no expense. It takes money to do that. That money comes from donations by its parishioners. They hold events such as cookouts where the food is purchased by the church and its members to feed those who don't have much. They have food, clothes, and toy drives during the holidays in which they prepare boxes of said items to deliver to families in the community who would otherwise have nothing. Larger churches help with college tuition.
You're under the assumption that all churches are wealthy but they aren't. Many pastors and their spouse have outside jobs because their salary from the church isn't enough to thrive.
I don't expect people who don't attend church to know any of that but there's a lot of good done by smaller churches in this country. Allowing them to keep their exemption status is the right thing to do. Making them turn money over to the government won't help any more people than the voluntary help already being done by the church. Government would just use it for something less deserving.
No one is disputing that some churches do some good in some communities. That is not the point.
There are lots of nonprofits and lots of for profits that do good in the community. In many jurisdictions the non prophets and in all jurisdictions the for profits pay their fair share of property tax to help sustain the police department, the fire department, the infrastructure, repair roads, repair sidewalks, and other such things that church's expect to be there.
There's no reason they should not pay their fair share of property taxes to the municipality.
Good post, but you are wasting your time. I have already pointed all this out. It won't be addressed or acknowledged. The response will only be, "So you think it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services the churches receive?"
Then if you acknowledge that no, perhaps it isn't but a solution needs to be found that works for all without losing what the church does for the community, the response will again be, "So you think it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services the churches receive?"
Conversation goes nowhere.
Really? I never consider it a waste of time to correct fallacies that are written by people who know very little about what a church does for people. If we stop sharing the truth with others, it will get lost in the shuffle. It doesn't take me much time to share this with others. As for the conversation going nowhere, remember that a lot of people read this site, not just members but non members, as well. I'd hate for them to think what the OP wrote is the truth when it's not.
I had an afterthought after posting my previous comment about what the church does to help others. There are a number of them that help with funeral expenses when a family needs it.
As for whether it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services a church receives, my answer is that it's just as moral and ethical for us (taxpayers) to pay for those services as much as it for us to pay for services that we don't think are moral or ethical.
Which includes zero property taxes for some corporations when the community wants to give them an incentive. And that is the problem with taxing anything that exists as a constitutional right: Government commonly uses taxation as a primary method of reward or coercion. That what "vice taxes" are all about. And that is the reason why "The power to tax is the power to destroy" was and still is the reason governments refrain from taxing churches.
Now the reverse has occurred and could be a partial solution. In the 1990s in Bergen County, NJ, the county government was unable to meet the needs of a sudden increase in homeless needing to be fed in the county seat. A county official asked 6 local churches if they could help. They responded, and it grew to a coalition of 80 churches, synagogues, and a Sikh temple providing meals for 125 people a day. The county maintained its budget, and the organizations provide services in lieu of taxes they don't pay. Not dollar for dollar, obviously, but it is an example of one solution.
No one is disputing that some churches do some good in some communities. That is not the point.
There are lots of nonprofits and lots of for profits that do good in the community. In many jurisdictions the non prophets and in all jurisdictions the for profits pay their fair share of property tax to help sustain the police department, the fire department, the infrastructure, repair roads, repair sidewalks, and other such things that church's expect to be there.
There's no reason they should not pay their fair share of property taxes to the municipality.
Well, yes. A lot of people are disputing that, cupper. Again, I say that those who are vocal about that don't really understand what a church, even the smallest of them, does in the community. In many instances, the amount of tax dollars that would be paid in property taxes (to support infrastructure, fire, police, Etc.) would be less than what these churches pay out to the people they help.
Frankly, I don't really think any of the hoopla over exempt status the church holds is really about money. I think it's a pure hatred for anything related to God, Jesus or Faith, in general. Just my opinion on that as I have no facts to back it up but, based on the way people are today, it makes perfect sense to me. The world seems much colder and cruel than it used to be but maybe that's because we have the internet where we find out what someone in Peoria Illinois thinks about religion whereas we had no idea before we read it online.
Really? I never consider it a waste of time to correct fallacies that are written by people who know very little about what a church does for people. If we stop sharing the truth with others, it will get lost in the shuffle. It doesn't take me much time to share this with others. As for the conversation going nowhere, remember that a lot of people read this site, not just members but non members, as well. I'd hate for them to think what the OP wrote is the truth when it's not.
I had an afterthought after posting my previous comment about what the church does to help others. There are a number of them that help with funeral expenses when a family needs it.
As for whether it's moral or ethical for everyone else to pay for the services a church receives, my answer is that it's just as moral and ethical for us (taxpayers) to pay for those services as much as it for us to pay for services that we don't think are moral or ethical.
Well said. Thank you.
You are quite right. Even if the fairness issue is a thinly disguised wish to find a way to force closure of small churches out of disdain for religion, others may very well read what we say and work toward satisfactory compromises.
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