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I am largely in agreement with this reasonable analysis because there are too many idiosyncrasies within the human population. That would be why I would NOT rule out ANY therapy that has ANY success rate. But the single most consistent aspect of addiction is denial, mordant. It feeds on selective perception and cognitive dissonance. That is why encouraging it is counter-productive.
It was said before. The idea is not to 'wipe out' AA but to remove it from it's current, publically accepted position as the best and/or most effective program to which problem drinkers should be directed...or, in the case of court directed treatment, mandated.
Can AA (and AlAnon) be a support group? Sure, of course they can, but their dependency on the god thing (6 out of the 12 steps involve a god or a higher power) has nothing to do with any recovery. It is just selling a religious perspective.
Although I have had no exposure to the group, it would appear a secular group such as SMART - Self Help Addiction Recovery | SMART Recovery® is much more inclusive and non-prescriptive than the 12 step groups. I think this one of the FAQ sums it up best:
How is SMART Recovery different from Twelve Step programs?
A. SMART Recovery has a scientific foundation, not a spiritual one. SMART Recovery teaches increasing self-reliance, rather than powerlessness. SMART Recovery meetings are discussion meetings in which individuals talk with one another, rather than to one another. SMART Recover encourages attendance for months to years, but probably not a lifetime. There are no sponsors in SMART Recovery. SMART Recovery discourages use of labels such as "alcoholic" or "addict".
The earth is very similar to a cell. If some people "feel" that energy transfer, like the feedback loops, producing "it". that would seem "infinite" to us because we are small. just like we see the earth as "flat". It's not nothing, it is there, it is being observed, and it is not Omni-dude.
I look at through the lenses of a "emotional need" and a "logical solution". addiction blankets both. I inform people that "addiction" is a chemical reaction and brain state. It just depends on where it settles. My neighbor is working on his lawn. Some people clean incessantly. Those addictions do not cause as much trouble as the a wrecking ball addicted drunk.
I am glad you pointed out that other group. I will check them out. Thanks. Some emotional people need the woo. That's empirical. So why not teach them why they need the "woo" with science and religion. Did you ever see how a person relaxes when you talk about parts of their faith scientifically? How relaxed they become and willing to listen. It well, amazing to me. They actually listen and say "really? he doesn't didn't have to rise and I still can believe?" I tell them F-yeah. data says "something" is more reasonable "nothing". I just don't believe you have the correct traits.
But I rant again. In the end its about how the universe works and how we help each other through this sit storm we call life.
I am largely in agreement with this reasonable analysis because there are too many idiosyncrasies within the human population. That would be why I would NOT rule out ANY therapy that has ANY success rate. But the single most consistent aspect of addiction is denial, mordant. It feeds on selective perception and cognitive dissonance. That is why encouraging it is counter-productive.
Yes, which is why I said the boilerplate "quit cold turkey" approach is arguably best for many with respect to alcohol. But I am in some ways a food addict and I can be in denial about that to a degree but inherently one can't quit food cold turkey ... so where do I go with that? Give up and become morbidly obese? No, I do the best that I can, which is actually pretty good -- better than average in fact. I daresay that many reading this wish they were a mere 20 pounds overweight.
My guess is that the alcoholic with a strong genetic component to their addiction is best served by cold turkey, whereas those for whom the prime driver is more self-medication or habitual in nature, have other options open to them. Such as improving the underlying anxiety and/or depression, making life changes, etc., and then letting the habit fade naturally through more graduated changes. My son for example had a wakeup call in the form of a DUI but his drunkenness proved to be purely a self-medicating situation and once we got him health insurance (thanks to our evil Kenyan president) and proper medically supervised prescription medications, he has not touched a drop of liquor since, and feels no need to.
This also highlights that a problem with drinking is not even necessarily alcoholism (though it is apt to lead to it) and it is not "denial" to say so -- necessarily. Perhaps an actual alcoholic would simply adopt the above arguments as rationalizations why they "don't have a problem" but that doesn't make them any less true.
Sorry, but the psychological ignorance in support of anti-theism in this post is egregious. For YOU none of what you denigrate would be useful. For YOU!!! Stop trying to diagnose and recommend treatments for anyone else.
Sounded to me like a post where I said to avoid something (belief in a higher power) and didn't suggest other treatments but at least alluded to the power of the "placebo effect" when I said a belief in his grandma not approving would be one way to get motivated to stop drinking. In any case, I will stand with the fields of science, medicine and psychology to offer up better solutions to "drinking issues" than beliefs in non existent supernatural beings and if you think that is egregious "anti-theism", then so be it.
Yes, which is why I said the boilerplate "quit cold turkey" approach is arguably best for many with respect to alcohol. But I am in some ways a food addict and I can be in denial about that to a degree but inherently one can't quit food cold turkey ... so where do I go with that? Give up and become morbidly obese? No, I do the best that I can, which is actually pretty good -- better than average in fact. I daresay that many reading this wish they were a mere 20 pounds overweight.
My guess is that the alcoholic with a strong genetic component to their addiction is best served by cold turkey, whereas those for whom the prime driver is more self-medication or habitual in nature, have other options open to them. Such as improving the underlying anxiety and/or depression, making life changes, etc., and then letting the habit fade naturally through more graduated changes. My son for example had a wakeup call in the form of a DUI but his drunkenness proved to be purely a self-medicating situation and once we got him health insurance (thanks to our evil Kenyan president) and proper medically supervised prescription medications, he has not touched a drop of liquor since, and feels no need to.
This also highlights that a problem with drinking is not even necessarily alcoholism (though it is apt to lead to it) and it is not "denial" to say so -- necessarily. Perhaps an actual alcoholic would simply adopt the above arguments as rationalizations why they "don't have a problem" but that doesn't make them any less true.
I just wanted to share some of what happened with me since you talked about food addiction. I quit drinking over 3 years ago after I realized I had no desire to control my drinking. I literally just wanted to get drunk and stay that way. That scared me straight. 3 weeks ago I dropped sugar (and processed foods) dead on the spot because the same thing was going on yet again. I used to run. That statement about running isn't random. Have you heard about deltafosB? There is evidence to suggest running, sugar and alcohol are all on the same pathway. You are a smart guy (I'm not just saying that to flatter you). I would be interested on what you think about it.
Sorry, but the psychological ignorance in support of anti-theism in this post is egregious. For YOU none of what you denigrate would be useful. For YOU!!! Stop trying to diagnose and recommend treatments for anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan2008
Sounded to me like a post where I said to avoid something (belief in a higher power) and didn't suggest other treatments but at least alluded to the power of the "placebo effect" when I said a belief in his grandma not approving would be one way to get motivated to stop drinking. In any case, I will stand with the fields of science, medicine and psychology to offer up better solutions to "drinking issues" than beliefs in non existent supernatural beings and if you think that is egregious "anti-theism", then so be it.
Your agenda of avoiding a higher power is pure unadulterated bias and bigotry that has no relevance to the treatment of addiction. There people for whom a higher power is real and an aid in their struggle with addiction. Your pompous and presumptuous anti-theist agenda has no place in the equation of help. Go shout on a street corner and stay away from the addicted. They don't need your proselytizing. They need help.
Your agenda of avoiding a higher power is pure unadulterated bias and bigotry that has no relevance to the treatment of addiction. There people for whom a higher power is real and an aid in their struggle with addiction. Your pompous and presumptuous anti-theist agenda has no place in the equation of help. Go shout on a street corner and stay away from the addicted. They don't need your proselytizing. They need help.
why do you let other people's opinions get you so worked up?
why do you let other people's opinions get you so worked up?
Because their selfish attitude about what people should or should not believe takes priority over the real needs of the addicted and serves no beneficial purpose. It may satisfy their self-centered belief about what people should believe, but it ignores what others may need to get help. I really cannot abide such self-centered lack of concern for what others might need.
Because their selfish attitude about what people should or should not believe takes priority over the real needs of the addicted and serves no beneficial purpose. It may satisfy their self-centered belief about what people should believe, but it ignores what others may need to get help. I really cannot abide such self-centered lack of concern for what others might need.
There are a lot of conflicting beliefs about what works for addiction. Probably because different things work for different people. You can't actually know another's intent. It is sad for that poster if he has a need that cannot be filled from within, don't you think?
I just wanted to share some of what happened with me since you talked about food addiction. I quit drinking over 3 years ago after I realized I had no desire to control my drinking. I literally just wanted to get drunk and stay that way. That scared me straight. 3 weeks ago I dropped sugar (and processed foods) dead on the spot because the same thing was going on yet again. I used to run. That statement about running isn't random. Have you heard about deltafosB? There is evidence to suggest running, sugar and alcohol are all on the same pathway. You are a smart guy (I'm not just saying that to flatter you). I would be interested on what you think about it.
I have no opinion about it as until now I hadn't heard of it. But I just scanned an overview and it does seem like an interesting connection. Thanks for turning me on to it. Doubtless, my deltafosB thanks you. ;-)
One thing that I took to heart years ago was that it takes roughly 3 weeks to establish any new habit, at least where the main component of that is psychological acclimatization. If you can tough it out for that long, you are probably out of the woods unless there is a biochemical component. The long half-life of deltafosB could play a role here. But I think that if you can break the psychological habit you deprive it of much of its power over you, even while you wait for it to leach out of your body.
Anyway, I was able to use that to good advantage in losing weight. The worst of the withdrawals for me were psychological and were over by the end of the 3rd week. There was some lingering difficulty for probably another month or so. I overcompensated for a couple of months by limiting my fluid intake entirely to water and virtually eliminating bread before VERY gradually reintroducing them. I am still fond of milk and in warm weather, certain sodas, as well as almost any sort of bread, and could easily get into a spiral of overconsumption if I don't take care. But I don't feel particularly deprived compared to the 1990s when I started shedding pounds, either.
There is also the concept that whatever foods you tend to crave are the ones you are addicted to and that harm you the most. Without providing TMI, just let me say that depending on how much and what kind of bread I eat, the more often I must excuse myself from polite company. Despite not having an official gluten sensitivity, my doctors did establish a connection between digestive distress and certain kinds of breads. So I had a triple motivation: weight loss, blood sugar control, and simple comfort -- once I connected the dots and did not see the discomfort as random, but connected to an actual cause.
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