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Of course not. Anyone who harms someone else has got some underlying issues with how they are mentally or emotionally processing life, and can't be said to be well-adjusted, in my opinion. Then again, how many of us have not inflicted some harm on other human beings at various points in our lives? We've all got issues to one degree or another. At what point do they deserve to be labelled "disorders"?
OK, I just wanted to get a barometer of whether you believed a reasonably well adjusted person would go from not harming people to harming people simply because they watched a smut video. I think your answer is no, which I agree with.
And yes, none of us can lay claim to mental or emotional perfection. And while I believe everybody is potentially capable of all sorts of heinous acts....given the right confluence of circumstances....I am also quite confident in saying that most of us will never commit atrocities on each other no matter what we read, watch, or hear. And that, to me is no small data point for consideration.
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We're complex critters, and there are most always a multitude of issues that contribute. There were many contributing factors in this person's case. Pornography was one of them, and a major one. It often is.
At any rate, I appreciate that you can see at least the potential validity of the points made in the link I posted.
For the record ... this is not about me wanting to outlaw pornography. I'm of the opinion, as Mystic I believe was alluding to, that you can't legislate people into having "agape" concern for the well-being of others. Nothing about the porn industry indicates that it comes from a place of contributing to the well-being of society as a whole, and when people seem to be trying to minimize the harm it certainly causes, I'm okay calling them on that. Especially when the one's most often doing the minimizing (men), in my experience, are the ones least likely to be victimized as a result.
Why does it seem like you guys want to gloss this over, when it is the women you love who are put at risk? I just don't get it.
You're right, we are complex. We do all sorts of things without complete self-awareness of why we do them, or why we do them a particular way. And that's where psychology coupled with biology is the best path to understanding how our minds work. And I'm of the opinion (perhaps you could call it wishful thinking) that we will eventually be able to not only explain ourselves better....but to actually fix our problems and disorders before they result in major harms to others.
Not a pre-programmed bunch of robots, but people who can have the effects of major mental disorders and abuse reversed so they can get past their "demons"....which I would call improperly wired neurotransmitters. The types that have been misaligned to equate pleasure or gratification with harming others.
And I'll say this much on why I don't believe porn to be a bigger risk. Because rapists and pedophiles are incorrectly wired for gratification. And these have been occurring long before porn and the internet.
Now that isn't to say I see no negative impact to porn. Especially when one becomes obsessed with it. I do find it gives false expectations of (mostly) women and objectifies them in ways that can be viewed by unstable men and acted upon inappropriately.
But I don't make the leap from inappropriate to harmful that easily without a major clinical mental disorder and don't believe we ought to set societal standards (e.g. laws) by them. And I think we agree there as well.
Second, didn't anyone ever tell you that when someone points out that something you are doing is harmful, shifting the focus to other things which are also harmful doesn't change anything or absolve you?
Fine, you have no objective morality. You don't care about the impact what you do has on other people. You speak to my point exactly: you produce pornography because you have nothing but your own self-interest at heart, and could care less about the harm you do to society at large.
Bully for you.
I never said in my post that you were religious. As I recall...you used to be, but are not now.
I was pointing out that nothing that enhances or accentuates a womans looks or "sexiness" can ever be charged with "objectifying", "exploiting", or "abusing" them.
Either all of it does...or none of it does.
By your logic...it all must "harm" them and society.
You don't see that you are not making a rational or logical argument...and just say that you refuse to state the logical and objective reasons why it is "wrong" and "harmful".
This is because you know that beyond your personal opinion about it...it cannot LOGICALLY be proven harmful.
It would be like blaming a car dealership for injuries caused in a car accident. Or blaming breweries and distilleries for drunk driving incidents. Or blaming knife manufacturers for stabbings. You could blame plastic surgeons that do breast augmentations and lip injections for women that are subsequently sexually abused. The examples are endless.
The man who hurt you was wrong to do that. His "excuse" could have been anything...but it was on him and him alone.
I remember that back in the day some claimed "rock and roll" music would cause bad behavior...now it's "gangsta rap" that is cited as a risk.
We cannot lay blame on any genre of the the entertainment industry for the actions of evildoers. Their actions are of their own volition. No form of entertainment "causes" or "makes" them do anything.
Otherwise...we could pin criminal action on anything we could possibly think of...be it violent or pornographic movies, rap music, contact sports, cheerleaders, or whatever else you could come up with.
It is terrible what happened to you...and you have my sympathy. But neither I, or people working in that particular industry I work in, are in any way responsible for it.
I know the molestation harmed you but I doubt that pornography played any significant role in your molester's decision to molest you. Clearly you trust this man and his so-called explanation and I refuse to try to change your mind about it. You are in a better position to judge that. But I am always skeptical of such excuses for bad behavior that mimic the "Satan made me do it!" meme.
I also refuse to defend pornography because I personally find it distasteful. My only point is that morality or immorality does not reside in ANY externalities. It is always and entirely in our state of mind toward God and each other.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Yes, I absolutely am in a better position to judge. He never said "satan made him do it". He never said porn made him do it. It was a major. contributing. factor.
On a scale of major contributing factors, I would say his immaturity and hormones played the major roles if he was influenced by pornography.
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You doubt that porn could have played a significant role, but there are plenty of things out there that tell you a different story. No one is saying that EXCUSES the offenders. You guys aren't dumb. You KNOW it plays a role and is harmful. You KNOW it contributes to a view of women that puts women at risk, marginalizes them, objectifies them, degrades them and contributes to SOME men victimizing women. But you don't want to say anything other than, "it's distasteful".
It CAN do all those things, Pleroo. It is a stimulus and can be responded to in many ways. SOME men have been prevented from exercising their curiosity and appetites with actual women. SOME men prefer pornography to any of the actual women they might have access to. I hate being seen to defend pornography because i am NOT, but there is a bigger moral principle here. We have to stop blaming externalities for our moral lapses and inadequacies. They are not at fault. We are. Morality resides within us or it doesn't exist irrespective of any external stimuli.
But neither I, or people working in that particular industry I work in, are in any way responsible for it.
Yes you are
you put your very life force into an industry that harms women, children, and men
you state you do it for the money
your stance is like the cigarette companies who say "we just make cigarettes, they smoke them, not my problem" all the while targeting ads to children and pimping to make a buck, all the while claiming that there is no "proof" that cigarettes are harmful
you are honest enough to admit pornography is depraved
and honest enough to admit anything for a buck
just not honest enough to admit that you are part of the problem by pimping for the industry
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-25-2016 at 06:08 PM..
On a scale of major contributing factors, I would say his immaturity and hormones played the major roles if he was influenced by pornography.
You're okay blaming it on immaturity or hormones or anything BUT porn? You can acknowledge that those things may have been contributing factors, but certainly not porn?
Makes no sense, Mystic.
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It CAN do all those things, Pleroo. It is a stimulus and can be responded to in many ways. SOME men have been prevented from exercising their curiosity and appetites with actual women. SOME men prefer pornography to any of the actual women they might have access to. I hate being seen to defend pornography because i am NOT, but there is a bigger moral principle here. We have to stop blaming externalities for our moral lapses and inadequacies. They are not at fault. We are. Morality resides within us or it doesn't exist irrespective of any external stimuli.
In spite of the studies that show there is a connection between pornography and sexual offense (did you even look at the link I posted, Mystic?), you guys are intent on denying that any blame should be placed on it?
Of course there's a bigger moral principle here. That doesn't negate that external things LIKE PORNOGRAPHY, can and do contribute to the problem. So, yeah, you don't want to defend porn. You don't want to defend an industry that objectifies, degrades and puts women at risk ... but you do.
You agree that "agape" is concerned with the well-being and best interest of all. Is porn agape, Mystic? Does it promote agape in any way? Is it in any way concerned with the best interest of women?
On a scale of major contributing factors, I would say his immaturity and hormones played the major roles if he was influenced by pornography. It CAN do all those things, Pleroo. It is a stimulus and can be responded to in many ways. SOME men have been prevented from exercising their curiosity and appetites with actual women. SOME men prefer pornography to any of the actual women they might have access to. I hate being seen to defend pornography because i am NOT, but there is a bigger moral principle here. We have to stop blaming externalities for our moral lapses and inadequacies. They are not at fault. We are. Morality resides within us or it doesn't exist irrespective of any external stimuli.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
You're okay blaming it on immaturity or hormones or anything BUT porn? You can acknowledge that those things may have been contributing factors, but certainly not porn?
Makes no sense, Mystic.
As a stimulus, it is a factor, just NOT one of the dominant ones, Pleroo. I did not say " but certainly not porn."
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In spite of the studies that show there is a connection between pornography and sexual offense (did you even look at the link I posted, Mystic?), you guys are intent on denying that any blame should be placed on it?
My familiarity with the pros and cons of such studies allows me to see deficiencies in the attempts to draw causal relationships from them. It does seem inconsistent to excoriate men who claim that women "contribute" to their rapes by the way they dress and then turn around and blame porn for rapes and abuse.
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Of course there's a bigger moral principle here. That doesn't negate that external things LIKE PORNOGRAPHY, can and do contribute to the problem. So, yeah, you don't want to defend porn. You don't want to defend an industry that objectifies, degrades and puts women at risk ... but you do.
No i do not, Pleroo. I simply deny that externalities are the cause of immorality, period. Porn appeals to the basest of our instincts and is far too anmalistic and crude to warrant any defense.
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You agree that "agape" is concerned with the well-being and best interest of all. Is porn agape, Mystic? Does it promote agape in any way? Is it in any way concerned with the best interest of women?
No, porn is NOT agape. It does NOT promote agape in any way. It is NOT interested in the best interest of women. But it is also NOT the cause of immoral behavior by men. That is all on the men, as it is when women dress and act provocatively. I can see that your emotional connection to this subject is too strong (understandably) for a purely objective discourse, so I will withdraw, Pleroo, with my apologies if I have offended you or in anyway damaged your opinion of me.
I can see that your emotional connection to this subject is too strong (understandably) for a purely objective discourse, so I will withdraw, Pleroo, with my apologies if I have offended you or in anyway damaged your opinion of me.
My opinion of you was not damaged until you pulled out and played the "emotional" card. That's dismissive and patronizing. Perhaps it is you who has an emotional connection to porn (or someone who produces it?) that doesn't allow you to discuss it with objectivity.
As a stimulus, it is a factor, just NOT one of the dominant ones, Pleroo. I did not say " but certainly not porn." My familiarity with the pros and cons of such studies allows me to see deficiencies in the attempts to draw causal relationships from them. It does seem inconsistent to excoriate men who claim that women "contribute" to their rapes by the way they dress and then turn around and blame porn for rapes and abuse. No i do not, Pleroo. I simply deny that externalities are the cause of immorality, period. Porn appeals to the basest of our instincts and is far too anmalistic and crude to warrant any defense. No, porn is NOT agape. It does NOT promote agape in any way. It is NOT interested in the best interest of women. But it is also NOT the cause of immoral behavior by men. That is all on the men, as it is when women dress and act provocatively. I can see that your emotional connection to this subject is too strong (understandably) for a purely objective discourse, so I will withdraw, Pleroo, with my apologies if I have offended you or in anyway damaged your opinion of me.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
My opinion of you was not damaged until you pulled out and played the "emotional" card. That's dismissive and patronizing. Perhaps it is you who has an emotional connection to porn (or someone who produces it?) that doesn't allow you to discuss it with objectivity.
I withdraw the emotional comment. I was actually trying to be compassionate. Epic fail! AS to any connection to porn, I have none and never did. I just do not see ANY externality as having anything to do with one's morality. It is ALL inside each of us and that is where ALL the responsibility resides as well.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-25-2016 at 07:46 PM..
I withdraw the emotinal comment. I was actually trying to be compassionate. Epic fail!
Saying that I'm too emotional to be objective was meant to be compassionate? If you meant it to be compassionate, you would never have worded it that way. Come on, my friend. You were being dismissive ... own it.
I withdraw the emotional comment. I was actually trying to be compassionate. Epic fail! AS to any connection to porn, I have none and never did. I just do not see ANY externality as having anything to do with one's morality. It is ALL inside each of us and that is where ALL the responsibility resides as well.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Saying that I'm too emotional to be objective was meant to be compassionate? If you meant it to be compassionate, you would never have worded it that way. Come on, my friend. You were being dismissive ... own it.
Actually, I would never be dismissive toward you, Pleroo. I respect you too highly. I was trying to wriggle out of a discussion that had no upside. Porn has no redeeming qualities and I found myself cast in its defense all in support of an abstract principle about the locus of morality, a no-win proposition. My withdrawal was an epic fail.
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