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In your nutty fantasy world, you have to accept things like the placebo effect which in essence is the acknowledgement that our mental thoughts have the power to create real physical changes and healing. If I was an atheist, I would call that magic.
I think coincidence is more applicable. You've got 80,000 fans in Jordan Hare stadium with 40K praying for an Auburn win and 40K praying for Alabama. Half wind up with answered prayers. It's the same thing with healing prayers. Most go unanswered but the few recovered folks credit God with interceding on their behalf. It's far from conclusive proof. You believe what you wanna believe.
^the late Johan Cruyff, atheist and one of the greatest soccer players to play, once remarked that in Spain (where he played professionally for a while) each team has 11 guys praying for victory; if god answered prayers, the games should all end up in a draw. Heh--of course, the fans or members of the 'favored' team (as indicated by the outcome) can always rationalize their status by claiming to have been rewarded for devoutness/'clean living'/etc....
Read through the first ten pages of comments. While Jeff may be overstating/misrepresenting the conclusions of the study he presented, I think most of the commenters are also being overly dismissive of the claim that atheism may have a deleterious effect on mental health.
I hope that you did not find my comments were among the "most" that were "dismissive".
Atheism is in my view an indirect cause of depression in some people, particularly new deconverts, and some of those could lead to suicide or suicidal tendencies. But it is also clear that there are a plethora of factors: economic and emotional and mental stress of all kinds, as well as simple immaturity and impulse control issues (the example I cited being preadolescent girls, the group with the most increase in suicide). Unless the OP can demonstrate in some way that belief in god has salubrious effects on one's ability to cope with life stress generally then "no god = more suicide" is a specious connection.
I have never suggested that atheism is an inherently feelgood philosophical view for people who have poorly set expectations of life, but I have also pointed out that unrealistic expectations abound in theism and these result in cognitive dissonance, disappointment and frustration even SHORT of atheism. I don't consider it atheism's "fault" that it happens to pour the cold water of reality on people with rose colored glasses who are predisposed to seek out unicorns and rainbows.
The other point is that we can understand and use the placebo -effect of religion without needing to be saddled with the claptrap and myth.
I was tempted to argue this, but meditation divorced from religion seems to have prayer-like comforting effects on people. Not for me personally (I tried yoga once and nearly had a panic attack, among other negative related experiences), but I can't argue with what I perceive to be the big picture results
I think coincidence is more applicable. You've got 80,000 fans in Jordan Hare stadium with 40K praying for an Auburn win and 40K praying for Alabama. Half wind up with answered prayers. It's the same thing with healing prayers. Most go unanswered but the few recovered folks credit God with interceding on their behalf. It's far from conclusive proof. You believe what you wanna believe.
How is it coincidence that if someone takes a certain pill, they have remarkable improvement?
I was tempted to argue this, but meditation divorced from religion seems to have prayer-like comforting effects on people. Not for me personally (I tried yoga once and nearly had a panic attack, among other negative related experiences), but I can't argue with what I perceive to be the big picture results
That is why it is better done in a non -religious context. Just one simple example, meditation is traditionally thought to be needfully done with the legs tied in a knot and probably with the hands in some Mudra or other. That is cobblers. Apart from eyes shut to avoid distraction, you can do it seated on a chair.
If I could perhaps (speculatively) compare the avoidance of leg and back pain with avoiding panic attacks in Yoga (whatever the cause and cure) sidelining traditional nonsense is an advantage of a secular approach to religious benefits.
I believe in god, but I fail to see where the op made a compelling argument (or any argument, in fact) that the increase in suicides has anything to do with whether or not people believed in god.
I hope that you did not find my comments were among the "most" that were "dismissive".
Atheism is in my view an indirect cause of depression in some people, particularly new deconverts, and some of those could lead to suicide or suicidal tendencies. But it is also clear that there are a plethora of factors: economic and emotional and mental stress of all kinds, as well as simple immaturity and impulse control issues (the example I cited being preadolescent girls, the group with the most increase in suicide). Unless the OP can demonstrate in some way that belief in god has salubrious effects on one's ability to cope with life stress generally then "no god = more suicide" is a specious connection.
I have never suggested that atheism is an inherently feelgood philosophical view for people who have poorly set expectations of life, but I have also pointed out that unrealistic expectations abound in theism and these result in cognitive dissonance, disappointment and frustration even SHORT of atheism. I don't consider it atheism's "fault" that it happens to pour the cold water of reality on people with rose colored glasses who are predisposed to seek out unicorns and rainbows.
This is not directly related to your post which I'm quoting, but...one of the commenters in those ten pages called out Jeff for having a bleak/pessimistic worldview, given what his view of life would be were it not for his religious convictions. So as an atheist who sees life bleakly, with whom do I side, the atheist I perceive to be deluded in his secular optimism, or the deluded religious person whom I perceive to be accurate (more or less) in his assessment of life without religion? To transform this rhetorical question into a non-rhetorical one...if pressed to make a choice, I can probably more easily empathize with the latter.
How is it coincidence that if someone takes a certain pill, they have remarkable improvement?
It isn't. What is happening is known because of tests. In a way the analogy of the game (one side wins, one loses, despite prayers on both sides) with the double -blind tests on the placebo effect, blows your "if it works repeatedlly, it must be true" argument out of the water.
That it works is only half the argument. Knowing why it works (and faith claims without proof is not 'Knowing why') is the other.
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