No God More Suicide - US Suicide Rate Increases 24% (witness, choices, atheists)
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Read through the first ten pages of comments. While Jeff may be overstating/misrepresenting the conclusions of the study he presented, I think most of the commenters are also being overly dismissive of the claim that atheism may have a deleterious effect on mental health.
'In another review of 93 studies on religion and health, Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at Duke University Medical Center, found that more religious people had fewer depressive symptoms. "People who are more involved in religious practices and who are more religiously committed seem to cope better with stress," Koenig said. "One of the reasons is because [religion] gives people a sense of purpose and meaning in life, and that helps them to make sense of negative things that happen to them," Koenig said. A person's religious community can also provide support and encouragement through hard times, he said.'
The reason that I dismissed Jeff's claim is that the stats did not back him up. Sure being a member of a group like a church assists a person's mental state but that is not the point. There has been little change in the suicide rate in the US based on the stats and suicide rates are only now at the level that they were when prayer was dropped from school after years of decline. Jeff needs to learn that if you are using studies or stats he needs to use all of the stats or the study and not just pick and choose which ones he wishes. The example of the Nevada stats, he argued that because the rate for one or two age groups had increased it had to do with atheism ignoring both the fact that the overall rate and the rate for most age groups had decreased and that of all the causes for suicide given lack of religious belief was not even mentioned.
If Jeff is right that atheism leads to suicide it has to be such a small contributor simply based on the US rates over the years, the conclusions of suicide prevention sites and the list of world rates by countries which do not support his conclusion. He should not have the expectation that we have to accept whatever he states as true and never but forth a counter argument. He made a claim and if the data does not back him up then it is up to him to provide more data not simply to make the claim that he supplied data and we would not accept it even if he gave 1000 documents especially as the second one he provided did not back him up at all.
I believe in god, but I fail to see where the op made a compelling argument (or any argument, in fact) that the increase in suicides has anything to do with whether or not people believed in god.
Indeed; the OP is basically an insult to people who are depressed or despairing of life. To suggest that suicide is a phenomenon that is simplistically joined at the hip with atheism is to minimize the real human suffering of those who contemplate suicide often despite their positive beliefs about god; and it is to misdirect away from many of the actual causes, and is to misdiagnose and misprescribe the remedy.
When Jeff is willing to admit that religious ideation (particularly his brand of it) is as likely to CAUSE as to ease depression and suicidal ideation, then we can start to have a coherent discussion about the many and complex interrelated causes of suicide -- including those contributed by theism and atheism, along with all the others.
The reason that I dismissed Jeff's claim is that the stats did not back him up. Sure being a member of a group like a church assists a person's mental state but that is not the point. There has been little change in the suicide rate in the US based on the stats and suicide rates are only now at the level that they were when prayer was dropped from school after years of decline. Jeff needs to learn that if you are using studies or stats he needs to use all of the stats or the study and not just pick and choose which ones he wishes. The example of the Nevada stats, he argued that because the rate for one or two age groups had increased it had to do with atheism ignoring both the fact that the overall rate and the rate for most age groups had decreased and that of all the causes for suicide given lack of religious belief was not even mentioned.
If Jeff is right that atheism leads to suicide it has to be such a small contributor simply based on the US rates over the years, the conclusions of suicide prevention sites and the list of world rates by countries which do not support his conclusion. He should not have the expectation that we have to accept whatever he states as true and never but forth a counter argument. He made a claim and if the data does not back him up then it is up to him to provide more data not simply to make the claim that he supplied data and we would not accept it even if he gave 1000 documents especially as the second one he provided did not back him up at all.
Yeah, of the 100 posts I read, Unsettomati's response was perhaps most valuable for contextualizing the shorter range of stats that Jeff presented. Jeff's argument thus is kind of comparable to global warming deniers who would base their arguments on the planet not having warmed from 1995-2010 or whatever the argument du jour was a little while ago.
In your nutty fantasy world, you have to accept things like the placebo effect which in essence is the acknowledgement that our mental thoughts have the power to create real physical changes and healing. If I was an atheist, I would call that magic.
That's not "magic" nor does it have anything to do with religion. That's science. Our thoughts have an effect on our hormones (like when your pulse increases when someone on the forum makes you mad--stress hormones are activated), and slow, deep breathing (the "relaxation response") turns off those stress hormones and activates the parasympathetic nervous system, calming you down. That's basic science. Where have you been? lol You'd better take an Anatomy and Physiology class.
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That's not "magic" nor does it have anything to do with religion. That's science. Our thoughts have an effect on our hormones (like when your pulse increases when someone on the forum makes you mad--stress hormones are activated), and slow, deep breathing (the "relaxation response") turns off those stress hormones and activates the parasympathetic nervous system, calming you down. That's basic science. Where have you been? lol You'd better take an Anatomy and Physiology class.
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You are still trying to compare something intangible and non-physical with a physical result. You tell me only the physical act being stress hormones triggered by emotion or stress. Ok, what causes emotion? Chemical reaction? What causes the reaction? In your world, everything must be physical and have an origin.
That's a far cry example from the placebo effect where the power of thought actually creates healing. It remains a mystery to science.
Quote:
However, the placebo effect itself remains mysterious. Doctors still have questions about how it operates, and why its effect can be large, small or nonexistent for a given treatment or patient.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I hope that you did not find my comments were among the "most" that were "dismissive".
Atheism is in my view an indirect cause of depression in some people, particularly new deconverts, and some of those could lead to suicide or suicidal tendencies. ......
That's some assertion. Now back it up with real citations. Otherwise you're doing exactly what Jeff is. Or is it the bolded, a faith expression?
If it is the later, it is only an opinion, which, just like faith, you're welcome to have, just don't pretend it is reality.
That's some assertion. Now back it up with real citations. Otherwise you're doing exactly what Jeff is. Or is it the bolded, a faith expression?
If it is the later, it is only an opinion, which, just like faith, you're welcome to have, just don't pretend it is reality.
It is my own observation. I would not claim in the whole history of the world that no one has ever offed themselves primarily because of existential despair while pining for divine intervention that they wished they could believe in.
We can have a conversation about that edge case when Jeff is willing to deny his implicit claim that in the whole history of the world no one has ever offed themselves primarily because of existential despair while pining for divine intervention that they DO believe should occur.
Becoming an atheist was a direct cause of depression for me, for whatever my one case was/is worth. The Center for Inquiry, headquartered near me in Amherst NY, runs a 'recovery from religion' support group on Monday nights, suggesting perhaps that I'm not alone at least in the department of struggling to adjust to life without doctrinally provided meaning. (I've never attended; I'm just aware of the group's existence).
The one link I provided earlier, the one about the review of 93 studies on the relationship between religion and mental health, is overall consistent with mordant's claim, although correlation isn't causation and no mention was made of new deconverts in particular (although the notion that losing religion can be disconcerting as well as liberating, apart even from my own experience, is fairly commonsensical)
I do get down at times realizing that no matter how hard life is, there will be no "reward" afterward.
But that doesn't mean I can just start believing in God in order to keep that feeling from happening. That is just not possible. So I'm not sure what the point is here. I don't see any studies pointing to whether PRETENDING to believe in God waylays suicide. Until we have those, I'm going to consider the jury still out on this one, sorry.
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