Colorado Supreme Court Rules You Can't Cite Religion For Not Baking A Cake (vaccinations, Hindu)
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Are you a German citizen? I am asking because then it might explain why there's a disconnect. The state ruling got appealed to a higher court. Federal law supersedes state law, and there is no federal law protecting LGBT rights. There are also no Constitutional protections for LGBT rights. And this decision ensured there was no precedent set.
Inaccurate statement. The baker is deciding what is right in his life, and sticking to his principles. That is not the same as casting judgement or what is right for other people to do, nor is sticking to principles the same as selfishness.
To be clear, secular law does protect religion and free speech as well.
...
It is exactly casting judgement. It is exactly trying to say what others should do.
And thankfully secular law has moved away from religion...slowly but surely.
Last edited by mensaguy; 06-12-2018 at 04:19 PM..
Reason: fixed quote
I guess that's the crux of the argument. Is baking a cake practicing one's religion? And if it IS, then someone can justify ANY sort of action they take, even if it is discriminatory towards other people as "practicing one's religion."
That's my concern. I think we'd agree discrimination is illegal. As is murder. Yet, if my religion dictates I must make a human sacrifice - then what? I know that is an extreme, but there is a huge gray area in between. And that WILL be tested, all in the name of "practicing one's religion."
Well, I baked a cake not long ago...left it in the oven way too long and burned it to the point of having to toss it. I guess I've committed a sin.
It sounds like you desire one generalization that will solve or apply to everything. That will never happen; there will always be a huge gray area for sure. Each case needs to be argued on it's particular merits and conditions. There was no intent for this ruling to state that any person or business is justified to do anything it wants by claiming religious beliefs, and it is unfair to take this ruling and make such an assertion. No one is stating "practicing one's religion" gives them freedom to legally do anything they want.
You and I are in agreement. Yet, the general populace will not see it as such. And they will discriminate and will continue to do so. Any idea how long a case like this takes to get up to the SCOTUS? About 8 years. That's a long time for people to do as they please with this. Even if they are wrong, there is nothing stopping many other people from discriminating others with religion practice as their basis.
Are you a German citizen? I am asking because then it might explain why there's a disconnect. The state ruling got appealed to a higher court. Federal law supersedes state law, and there is no federal law protecting LGBT rights. There are also no Constitutional protections for LGBT rights. And this decision ensured there was no precedent set.
Yes, all after the event. But when the event took place, the Colorado law was effective. This has since been overturned.
Nope, if your religious beliefs involves criminal or behavior that harms people then there has to be some limitations.
Emphasis on the word criminal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Typical callous attitude. The guy had the business way before your ilk managed to get the government to celebrate immorality. That's not his fault.
If you wish to set up any business, you have to ensure if follows the laws of the land.
If the law of the land changes, making certain practices illegal, you change the practice.
That is how business works. When it is the norm, that is accepted. When it effects your argument, then it is 'typical callous attitude'.
Strange how that works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
All you are doing is window dressing sin with the word love. I can do the same for incest and now it's not so easy to accept huh?
There is something in us that makes us generally not fall in love with close relations. Maybe not where you live, but in general, yes.And there is also a difference you need to pretend does not exist. Any child born from incest may very well grow up with deformities, so a third person could be harmed.
Do you spot any differences yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Wow, what a copout. You are desperately grasping at minor details. The argument is completely the same. Both owners are in situations that compromise their moral beliefs. Now the question to YOU is it is wrong for the government to force both owners to conduct business despite their moral beliefs. Yes or No.
Legal and illegal are identical in your world?
Pointing out crucial differences is a cop out, and grasping at minor details?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
What a collosal dodge. The frequency is completely irrelevant. Yes or no, do you support a father marrying his grown daughter? If not, then explain to me why that is not being hypocritical since you made the argument about two people just wanting to celebrate their love.
See above for incest.
Big clue, incest != homosexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You have zero proof that the Bible is fable.
No, but I have an abundance of evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Just wishful thinking on your part.
I demonstrated this lie was false earlier, remember. You know, where I pointed out you accepted Jesus was born twice while not existing? Oh, wait, you went quiet for a few days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Yes i've read Genesis, especially the part where it predicts that coming of Jesus hundreds of years before it happened.
What, the story of Jesus was invented in part out of Genesis as well. Wow, he is becoming more of a fable the more you Christians assert rubbish.
If you wish to set up any business, you have to ensure if follows the laws of the land.
If the law of the land changes, making certain practices illegal, you change the practice.
That is how business works. When it is the norm, that is accepted. When it effects your argument, then it is 'typical callous attitude'.
We would still have Jim Crow laws with that kind of mind set. When laws are unfair or interfere with a person's Constitutional rights, they have every right to fight against that law. Not just put up or leave type cold hearted mentality that your camp spews out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
There is something in us that makes us generally not fall in love with close relations. Maybe not where you live, but in general, yes.And there is also a difference you need to pretend does not exist. Any child born from incest may very well grow up with deformities, so a third person could be harmed.
You are still dodging. I figured you would bring up child deformatities. Fine then, a father marries his grown daughter who is barren and can't have children? Do you approve? YES OR NO. It's just two people wanting to share love, right? Frequency is irrelevant. After all, homosexuality is a small part of the population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Legal and illegal are identical in your world?
Pointing out crucial differences is a cop out, and grasping at minor details?
Yes, it's a cop out. I explained directly the similarities and you continue to blatantly ignore it. The dog example stands. My point is valid then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Big clue, incest != homosexuality.
sexual immorality = sexual immorality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
I demonstrated this lie was false earlier, remember. You know, where I pointed out you accepted Jesus was born twice while not existing? Oh, wait, you went quiet for a few days.
That's your evidence? A crusty old contradiction that has been debunked countless times? All that shows me if that you NEED the Bible to be fable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
What, the story of Jesus was invented in part out of Genesis as well. Wow, he is becoming more of a fable the more you Christians assert rubbish.
Fable books don't generally take time to include detailed book of laws and genealogies.
We would still have Jim Crow laws with that kind of mind set. When laws are unfair or interfere with a person's Constitutional rights, they have every right to fight against that law. Not just put up or leave type cold hearted mentality that your camp spews out.
We are not talking about unfair laws. We are talking about laws in general, otherwise you would have revolutions every day. But if you need to straw man ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You are still dodging. I figured you would bring up child deformatities. Fine then, a father marries his grown daughter who is barren and can't have children? Do you approve? YES OR NO. It's just two people wanting to share love, right? Frequency is irrelevant. After all, homosexuality is a small part of the population.
YOU are still dodging. The question is with regard to homosexuality. Incidentally homosexuality exists in 1/3rd of the population. Even you hinted you may be bisexual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Yes, it's a cop out. I explained directly the similarities and you continue to blatantly ignore it. The dog example stands. My point is valid then.
You ignored the differences, which is what counts. The question is about the use of religion to discriminate. Owning a pet store is not a religion, and eating pets is not discrimination towards people.
You keep evading this point.
Here is the title of the thread.
Colorado Supreme Court Rules You Can't Cite Religion For Not Baking A Cake (quote, Christian)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
sexual immorality = sexual immorality
True, but nothing to do with what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
That's your evidence? A crusty old contradiction that has been debunked countless times? All that shows me if that you NEED the Bible to be fable.
No, those TWO are just part of my evidence. And it has not been debunked, as 1) Christians lying does not count, and 2) do not blame me for the fact that your Bible literally says Jesus sacrificed himself only once, in heaven, and never came to earth.
The fact that you falsely claim it has been debunked just PROVES you need the Bible to be true because that is the only(bad) evidence you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Fable books don't generally take time to include detailed book of laws and genealogies.
Inaccurate statement. The baker is deciding what is right in his life, and sticking to his principles. That is not the same as casting judgement or what is right for other people to do, nor is sticking to principles the same as selfishness.
To be clear, secular law does protect religion and free speech as well.
It is exactly casting judgement. It is exactly trying to say what others should do.
And thankfully secular law has moved away from religion...slowly but surely.
You are saying the baker adhering to what he thinks is right and wrong is exactly the same as casting judgement? Well then we can't possibly have a reasonable discussion, because I can't comprehend that thinking.
If I refuse to play violent video games, am I thereby casting judgment on others who do? No, I don't like them but I'm fine if others do.
If I refuse to eat meat, am I casting judgement on those who do? No, I might be totally fine with them making their choice, I just prefer not to eat meat.
I mean, we can come up with a thousand examples of people choosing to follow their beliefs, religious-based or not. But that does not mean we are automatically judging others negatively when they don't agree? I certainly hope not.
Many rational people can simple agree to disagree. Or choose one path while recognizing other's have their right to choose their own path. That's how the world works, that's how humankind works.
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If you wish to set up any business, you have to ensure if follows the laws of the land.
