Mentally ill? Get off your meds and the Bible will cure you. (soul, priest)

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by cupper3

...No one deserves respect, only if they earn it. The other three can still apply. Only special snowflakes think they can demand it...

respect is basic.
sarcasm and name calling and condescension (such as "special snowflake") are not respectful, nor are they kind and courteous, nor are they effective tools for communication.

i will quote june again

Originally Posted by june 7th

Just because we either don't understand another, or disagree with what they believe, does NOT give us free license to call them "wrong." Respect is the key element, and should be extended to what others believe....there is no excuse for intolerance or disrespect for a person's beliefs. One's beliefs define a large part of who they are. We all deserve that.
Take gentle care.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Dignity, kindness and courtesy are givens in normal discourse. That is something YOU control.

Respect?

That is something the other person needs to EARN, not demand nor expect. No one deserves respect, only if they earn it. The other three can still apply. Only special snowflakes think they can demand it, until the real world hits them with a strong dose of reality.

You should at least consider June & Tzaph...they are wise women, and speak truth.
I know. And though I may not be able to find it within myself to be able to rise up to the standards they speak of...the merit of their counsel on this is distinct.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

respect is basic.
sarcasm and name calling and condescension (such as "special snowflake") are not respectful, nor are they kind and courteous.

i will quote june again

We will agree to disagree. In my part of the world, if you come along demanding respect, the kindest thing that probably would happen is that you would be laughed away. Most of the west (other than those jurisdictions bordering the Pacific) are the same. You'll be given all the rope to prove who you are, what you can do, and how you can do it, but you start demanding or expecting respect, that rope will be long enough to hang you.

That axiom is true whether your a rig pig, cat skinner or cow boss. Earn, don't demand.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by cupper3

We will agree to disagree. In my part of the world, if you come along demanding respect, the kindest thing that probably would happen is that you would be laughed away. Most of the west (other than those jurisdictions bordering the Pacific) are the same. You'll be given all the rope to prove who you are, what you can do, and how you can do it, but you start demanding or expecting respect, that rope will be long enough to hang you.

That axiom is true whether your a rig pig, cat skinner or cow boss. Earn, don't demand.

Well I think a situationally appropriate default / provisional level of respect and its close cousin, trust, are generally granted to people, especially one's elders, etc., in anticipation that they are worthy, which they generally are.

My objection to demands for respect is that they almost always come from people who want automatic and unconditional respect which must never be withdrawn under any circumstances for any reason, and who claim that withholding respect is "rude" or "nasty", at least when it happens to them. Such folks generally want exemption from some form of douchebaggery or other, and, quelle suprise, they generally don't give much respect themselves.

It sounds, cupper, like you probably grant rather lower levels of respect out the chute than I would, but the key is that this is YOUR decision and you are in control of it ... again, I agree that others don't get to demand it from you as their right.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by mordant

Well I think a situationally appropriate default / provisional level of respect and its close cousin, trust, are generally granted to people, especially one's elders, etc., in anticipation that they are worthy, which they generally are.

My objection to demands for respect is that they almost always come from people who want automatic and unconditional respect which must never be withdrawn under any circumstances for any reason, and who claim that withholding respect is "rude" or "nasty", at least when it happens to them. Such folks generally want exemption from some form of douchebaggery or other, and, quelle suprise, they generally don't give much respect themselves.

It sounds, cupper, like you probably grant rather lower levels of respect out the chute than I would, but the key is that this is YOUR decision and you are in control of it ... again, I agree that others don't get to demand it from you as their right.

Probably you're right, however, the other 3 of the 4 Tzaphkiel listed come into play: dignity, kindness and courtesy. One can well practice those, withholding the respect until demonstrated. Perhaps we are playing word games; the default position is not to treat someone with suspicion or rudeness.

[303Guy]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Just why do you think that religious beliefs, or any other belief for that matter, should be respected?

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

how old are you Rafius?
because the last time i had to answer the question "why do i have to respect anyone" was when my kids were in preschool.

it seems you missed out on the basic developmental stage of: dignity, respect, kindness, courtesy.
for most people those are desirable essential basic human behaviors.

I don't get your point. Rafius asked whether you thought religious beliefs (or any other) should be respected. What does that have to do with respecting people? You responded with; "how old are you Rafius?
because the last time i had to answer the question "why do i have to respect anyone" was when my kids were in preschool."

OK, I have to admit I was only taught how to read and write, USING CAPITALS, in my first year of primary school.

My kids never asked why they should respect anyone. They just did. I must have done something right.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by GldnRule

Extending a basic respect for others thoughts and ways just makes for a better overall "vibe" to the world, IMO.

...but why should beliefs that propagate wilful ignorance be 'respected'. That is my question.

Of course, for the sake of an orderly society...those that have thoughts and ways that are harmful and criminal in nature (being "bothered", "annoyed", or inconvenienced is not "harm") with a near full consensus they are such, (especially against children) not only lack worthiness of respect, but should see stiff penalties.

So you think that religious beliefs that teach people to be wilfully ignorant and scientifically illiterate are not harmful to society and should be respected? Do you think that religious beliefs that demand people deny themselves and their children medical treatment and stay home and pray are not harmful to society and should be respected?

People have all kinds of thoughts and beliefs I don’t agree with, or think is reasonable & meritorious. But since I'm not into spitting into strong winds, or pounding sand...the "proliferation" of those thoughts and beliefs that IMO lack merit are not an issue I waste my time dwelling on.

Same here and as long as they do not push them on society in an effort to take us back to a time more suited to the first century, I have no issue with them but when attempts to push ignorance and scientific illiteracy into our schools and places of learning are made under the guise of 'Truth' then I will fight it until my last breath and I will certainly not 'respect' that ignorance and superstition.

I don't "support" them, per se...I'm just hip to my negligible potential to change anything.
I live my own life and do my own thing...that many find to be very debased and twisted...so I don't engage in rock fights from my glass house.

If you do not fight them then you simply give them licence to continue.

If you agree so fervently that people teaching their children Religious Traditions & Doctrines should be cited and prosecuted for child abuse....go right to the where the biggest current issue is...and tell those ISIS people teaching their kids Wahhabi/Salafi Law that you want them to be arrested and imprisoned.

There is no difference between them and what we see in our own society.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You see belief in God in the same light as child porn????

How many children are being harmed by child porn throughout the world compared to the number of children being harmed by religion (of what ever flavour)?

Rafe, everything you post proceeds from the position that YOUR view of reality is the "real" one and everything else is just superstition and woo.

Superstition and woo is a good description.

The problem is your view has NOT been established with that kind of validity and probably never can be. Why don't you just back it down a peg or two until it is?

I would say the same about religion. Why are you not saying the same to them old boy?

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

how old are you Rafius?

A damn sight older than you I would wager.

....because the last time i had to answer the question "why do i have to respect anyone" was when my kids were in preschool.

Nice try at bending what I said. It isn't about people, it is about beliefs. Beliefs should not command automatic respect.

it seems you missed out on the basic developmental stage of: dignity, respect, kindness, courtesy.
for most people those are desirable essential basic human behaviors.

Brilliant! I think that blacks are inferior to whites; I think that women are inferior to men and are only any good for sex and frying bacon; I think child porn is just fine; I think that those that cannot look after themselves should be left to starve. So then, do I deserve dignity, respect, kindness, courtesy?

Once again I give you Mencken.

The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.

True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge.....

[june 7th]

Uh, guys? We need to get back on topic here....The OP does not directly address a debate about atheism, UNLESS within the context of the administration of mental health medication, and the religious ramifications, thereof....


Thanks!

~June

[mordant]

Well to tie this back to the OP it would seem that we have been on a bit of a sidebar here about a comment that we "have to" "respect" religious belief and how to parse that particular notion.

I don't really think anyone is suggesting that religion should be disparaged, only that interfering with the doctor / patient relationship and reducing the level of patient compliance with meds and other mental health treatments via medicine, which often are dicey with such patients as it is. If that interference is religion based, it is wrong. If it's not religion-based, it's wrong. The proper way for a person (religious or not) to handle matters if they feel a patient is overmedicated or mis-medicated is to ask permission to help them take it up with their doctor and then any changes can happen under medical supervision as mutually agreed. Otherwise people can die or harm themselves or others.

As I suggested in another post, doctors have varying levels of attentiveness, competence and communication skills, and sometimes mis-prescribe. If that is really going on then a different doctor can be recommended but it is still up to the patient.

But that wasn't the case posed by the OP, it was a medically unsupervised counseling program which had the immoral requirement that a person unilaterally go off all their meds as a precondition of entering the program. Unless that was supposed to be done under medical supervision of the patient's own doctor, which I highly doubt, then it is irresponsible, dangerous and immoral whether or not the motivation was religious.

Because the motivation WAS religious we properly state that this particular religious organization is also irresponsible, dangerous and immoral -- no less so just because it is religious.

[Ohky0815]

we were part of as group that really believe addiction could be prayed out of you.

My mom said my daughters special needs would be healed if i prayed more.