Audacious pastor caught in a lie, and he bragged about it (churches, Muslims)
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A fair point, given that typically Christianity is said to constitute about a third of the world populace, and that includes purely cultural Christians without much practice, liberal Christians with a rather loosely-held faith, more divergent denominations from your perspective such as perhaps Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and other High Church groups, etc. If you want to allege that the salutary effects of Christianity on personal character and virtue require a more high-octane version of Christianity that requires, say, literalist interpretation of scripture or whatever your particular favorite doctrine is ... that is fine to put forward as a hypothesis.
But what usually ends up happening is that you simply throw fellow Christians under the bus with no real knowledge of their actual dogma or adherence to it or motivations, if they do something that embarrasses you. Implicit in this claim is the circular reasoning that because no one who truly follows your dogma has a bad public testimony, then anyone with a bad public testimony doesn't follow your dogma.
The other problem is that now you have whittled the worldwide impact of Christianity from a healthy percentage (if still minority) of the world, down to a beleaguered remnant, which begs the question, if your particular version of Christianity is so potent and vital, why isn't it making significant inroads after, lo, these 2,000 years? Why in fact by many measures is it losing ground?
Perhaps it remains for you, because you haven't seen it addressed in other posts -- which it has been, repeatedly. But for your benefit:
We don't seek or find paths to god. That is what theists do. We simply point out, mainly in environments like this forum which is specifically designed for discussion and debate of these exact issues, the logical, evidential and ethical problems with those alleged paths and their asserted value for humanity. In doing so we often argue within theist's own assumed framework and beliefs to show that these weaknesses are so deep and systemic that even when limiting oneself to theological arguments, they don't hold up.
I'm sure you're not alleging that theists have no right to argue their case against unbelief, but sometimes these irritable hand-waving dismissals sound a lot like you're suggesting atheists don't have that right in the other direction. Besides, it's a circular argument; if we believed, we wouldn't be atheists in the first place -- by definition.
Make you a deal: I won't accuse you of being a closet atheist just because you argue against atheism, if you don't accuse me of being a closet theist just because I argue against theism.
You used words like Christianity and Christians in your post, which is what the question is about. The sentence "That is what theists do" can be rephrased as "That is what [Christianity does]."
Quite. Not all theists are Christian. But the fact is that they are really the only ones that are a nuisance in the West. If we granted that atheists can be just as bad (in fact I get the impression that personal integrity matters more to atheists and Winning votes for God matters more to theism than being strictly truthful ) then atheists simply have the better evidence - based case.
Maybe that's why lies have to be told here and there in order to claw back some ground. But then the claim that Christianity imparts better morals (or a least that lack of it leads to poor morals) suffers when we get this. And the only recourse then is to deny they were Christians at all. I have seen a move (just one bod) to declare all the religious who embarass their religions as really atheists by default.
I can hardly wait to see where this line of argument winds up.
!Audacious Pastor Barrett has been viewed 11 million times. Well, when the veracity of his claim he debated the Cambridge University "Atheistic Society" and proved that god existed in TWO minutes was questioned, guess what happened?
The video was removed by God TV. Now, I saw that video yesterday and thought it was bunkum, but did not follow up on it.
Others did. Seth Andrews is the host and producer of the The Thinking Atheist. He is a former Christian radio broadcaster (explains the production quality being so absurdly good) and currently works in video production. He lives somewhere outside Tulsa, Oklahoma and went to a private Christian school for most of his time. He eventually deconverted at the age of 37.
Here is his 7 minute video. If you want to skip to 5:30 of the video, the full debunk takes place, but it is worthwhile knowing the back story.
Christians, once again, where do the morals of these pastors come from? Lying and getting caught at it while bragging how great they are. Don't you get sick of this stuff? A lot of us sure do, as the veracity of honest pastors get painted with this kind of gambit.
I love how you always seem to go out and find the nuttiest, craziest on the fringe type of folks to suggest that all of Christianity is bad. Why not actually address what Christianity teaches, instead of what some nut jobs do?
Show some integrity. Actually address what we believe, not what some nut job claims.
I'm just curious if you have some kind of special membership. Did you pay for a membership to C-D to be able to post all this nonsense?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,920,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I love how you always seem to go out and find the nuttiest, craziest on the fringe type of folks to suggest that all of Christianity is bad. Why not actually address what Christianity teaches, instead of what some nut jobs do?
Show some integrity. Actually address what we believe, not what some nut job claims.
I'm just curious if you have some kind of special membership. Did you pay for a membership to C-D to be able to post all this nonsense?
My posts of this nature are invariably:
True
Current
Not out context
Cited with reliable references
The fact that they portray fundamentalists in a bad light is not my fault, but those fundamentalists who are featured. One of my sources is Christianity Today. I usually track down the source they reference before I post. In other words, I try and go to the original. Hemant Mehta does a good job of referencing his articles, and he is a great source. Again, I only choose a few to pass on here.
As I have stated, I get numerous ones a day from such sources as an RSS feed. Most are not posted. Perhaps that is a mistake and I should ramp up my frequency of these transgressions? I don't want to overwhelm those that have to defend this type of scat, but perhaps if you saw more you would be more concerned about what some of your brethren are up to. I can ramp it up if you think that would be productive in exposing the fringes if you think that might help.
The fact that they portray fundamentalists in a bad light is not my fault, but those fundamentalists who are featured. One of my sources is Christianity Today. I usually track down the source they reference before I post. In other words, I try and go to the original. Hemant Mehta does a good job of referencing his articles, and he is a great source. Again, I only choose a few to pass on here.
As I have stated, I get numerous ones a day from such sources as an RSS feed. Most are not posted. Perhaps that is a mistake and I should ramp up my frequency of these transgressions? I don't want to overwhelm those that have to defend this type of scat, but perhaps if you saw more you would be more concerned about what some of your brethren are up to. I can ramp it up if you think that would be productive in exposing the fringes if you think that might help.
What say you?
The thing is, you do find the atypical "fundamentalist" and you try to lift it up as typical. You do this daily, posting nonsensical posts that serve to do nohting more but to incite reactions. I'm sorry that you seem to have a hatred for Christians. I really am.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,920,960 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
The thing is, you do find the atypical "fundamentalist" and you try to lift it up as typical. You do this daily, posting nonsensical posts that serve to do nohting more but to incite reactions. I'm sorry that you seem to have a hatred for Christians. I really am.
Nonsensical would imply they are not true. Everyone of them ARE true. As you are well aware, I have family and friends who are christian, I don't hate them. I shake my head at some of their observations, and sometimes will throw in a Socratic question at them, but we get along well. A relatively good acquaintance from my Rotary group was the head pastor at a larger local church. I've mentioned before his doctorate of Divinity thesis on PKs and why the phenomena of them leaving the church. Him and I have had great debates; we just agree to disagree.
But if you think all of that is going to stop me from highlighting the excess and transgressions, it won't. It is up to the christain community to do so, but too often one sees incitement and encouragement for those that are off the rails, and often from members on this board.
Want to see less of these? Get your fellow pastors to stop being leaders for some of this stuff. That would be a great start.
Nonsensical would imply they are not true. Everyone of them ARE true. As you are well aware, I have family and friends who are christian, I don't hate them. I shake my head at some of their observations, and sometimes will throw in a Socratic question at them, but we get along well. A relatively good acquaintance from my Rotary group was the head pastor at a larger local church. I've mentioned before his doctorate of Divinity thesis on PKs and why the phenomena of them leaving the church. Him and I have had great debates; we just agree to disagree.
But if you think all of that is going to stop me from highlighting the excess and transgressions, it won't. It is up to the christain community to do so, but too often one sees incitement and encouragement for those that are off the rails, and often from members on this board.
Want to see less of these? Get your fellow pastors to stop being leaders for some of this stuff. That would be a great start.
I think you're finding the fringe guys and claiming they are representative of the whole. That is not honest.
I think you're finding the fringe guys and claiming they are representative of the whole. That is not honest.
Although I too am finding some of Cupper's threads tedious he did say this in the OP
Christians, once again, where do the morals of these pastors come from? Lying and getting caught at it while bragging how great they are. Don't you get sick of this stuff? A lot of us sure do, as the veracity of honest pastors get painted with this kind of gambit.
I do not see that as painting all Christians or all pastors with the same brush.
Although I too am finding some of Cupper's threads tedious he did say this in the OP
Christians, once again, where do the morals of these pastors come from? Lying and getting caught at it while bragging how great they are. Don't you get sick of this stuff? A lot of us sure do, as the veracity of honest pastors get painted with this kind of gambit.
I do not see that as painting all Christians or all pastors with the same brush.
His repeatedly tedious threads (all on the same general topic, no less) are what's tiring. His point is that he is trying to attack Christianity. When we tell him that's not typical, we get told we're wrong.
Really though...one would think that maybe he'd want to put them all on one thread....since they are all abou the same silly point.
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