Internet atheism: one of secularism's biggest enemies (spirit, difference, about)
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Long ago in my UFo days, I learned that it is dangerous to cut your mind free of the validated basics and let it go floating. This is often thought of as freeing the mind of restrictions, but it was much more like losing any kind of reality check.
that is a wise and valid approach, and a good bar to set. i totally agree. you are fully conscious, fully awake, fully aware. no drugs, no alcohol is even better, no Ouija boards, no spells, no magic, no invitations to dead people, no trying to make contact with UFOs, no trying to leave your body, no astral projection. if something feels remotely unwelcome or dangerous, send it away and leave. no hanging out with creepy people either. if they are not someone you trust at a common sense level or you are getting a bad vibe from them, then don't engage with them.
what you are trying to free your mind of is criticism that shuts down or drowns out or over-rides your perceptions.
treat everything you feel or notice or think or hear as "hmmm.....that's interesting" and then set it over on a shelf.
you don't want to lose touch with reality. you want to entirely retain your awareness and your feelings. awareness of your feelings is the best safety check you have. try not to ever override or shut down or talk yourself out of what you are feeling. and absolutely keep your common sense and your reality check. this all happens while you are going through your normal daily life: work, driving, exercise, listening to music that inspires you, all grounded in reality.
but be honest about your reasons for not doing something. if it is "this feels stupid" or "this feels silly" or "this is dumb" those are not warnings, just ego. if it is "i am afraid because something dangerous happened previously" then definitely take steps to be safe. don't play with stuff that attracts entities if that is what you're referring to.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 07:40 PM..
i am not interested in debating or arguing or fighting or proving anything to anyone.
Or listening to anyone either, it seems, given you keep saying this line over and over again and I have explained how I am not ASKING you to debate or fight or argue. I am merely, for my own interest, seeking to understand what the basis for your assertions are. And to DODGE answering that question you wantonly, willfully and transparently contrive to hide behind a repeated sentence that does not actually apply contextually.
And then, while doing that, you erect some narrative about "barriers" and "obstacles" to learning.... when in fact the ONLY and SOLE obstacles to it here is you and your behavior. In my view those are not avenues of growth and increased understanding, but rather ego-based exercises in dodge-manship [=the technique or practice of soapboxing while avoiding lending any substance to what you soap box. Usually while blaming other people for this, rather than acknowledging your own behavior is the issue, gaining a feeling of superiority over others by then pretending to have some imaginary moral high ground which you simply do not have.... which by design inherently preclude increased understanding.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
the tone and tenor of "discuss" (which i will do) is very different from "debate" or "argue" or "fight" (which i will not do).
Clearly you intend to do neither.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
i like the phrase you use "full working of human" because it speaks to wholeness, which is important. interesting that "ignorance" has "ignore" in it.
Ah the old move of finding smaller words in side bigger words in order to pretend that this somehow imparts some meaning or relevance that is not actually there. Actually I think you might find the etymology of the two words is the reverse of what you might pretend here in the ignore may be derived from ignorance, rather than the other way around. In that to ignore is to maintain willfully a position of ignorance. Whereas ignorance does not necessitate ignoring anything.... it can merely be that we simply do not know.
And that is the context in which I use it. When it comes to human consciousness.... we simply do not have a full working knowledge of the processes that give rise to it. However that does not mean we are entirely ignorant. We do know a lot about it and how it works.
And SO FAR what we can say entirely factually, a fact that you simple ignore to maintain ignorance, is that 100% of the knowledge we thus far have links consciousness inextricably to the brain. 0% of the knowledge and data we have so far is even SUGGESTIVE of any possible disconnect between the two, and there is NO support at this time for any concepts of consciousness operating independent of, let alone following the death of, the brain.
So it appears in light of the current state of the evidence, that words like "soul" and "spirit" are merely placeholders for areas of our current ignorance. Areas that we have NO reason at this time to think are going to even remotely fit with the imagination of theists and supernaturalists as to what the explanations will be.
But of course do not let facts get in the way of a good fantasy narrative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
a person will never fully understand or experience what it is to be human, if they ignore the spirit/soul.
Says you, but that is entirely circular. You are assuming the existence of such things, then assuming that being "Human" requires acknowledgement of them. Entirely circular argument. And quite a propaganda move too, because it divests you of the need to substantiate anything you say by attempting to make the mark look or feel somehow deficient by not simply accepting as truth what you say.
But, to be honest, I am not expecting anyone to buy that canard except, possibly, you yourself.
That said however.............
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
We as humans have four parts, and if we ignore or deny or fail to understand and nourish any of these four aspects of ourselves, we are incomplete, we are not whole: physical, emotional, mental, spiritual; that is body, heart, mind, soul.
..... you attempt to set up 4 1:1 mappings here. Between physical and body. Emotion and heart. Mental and mind. Spiritual and soul.
And for the most part there is nothing wrong with those mappings except the last one. Because there are MANY people who describe themselves as "spiritual".... sometimes myself included..... without recourse or subscription to unsubstantiated nonsense. For many "spiritual" merely refers to an exploration of the human condition, our place in the world, what it means to be human, morality and ethics, and much more..... without any reference or reliance on the unsubstantiated nonsense that spirituality has too often assimilated or been assimilated by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
The soul or spirit inhabits the human body, entering it at birth and leaving it at death
Define "soul". You keep using the word without being pinned down on what you even mean by it. Further, I would ask again, have you any substantiation for the assertions contained within this sentence? Or are you going to dodge the question AGAIN by hiding behind this fantasy narrative that you are only out to soap box without engaging in what you contrive to call "fighting" or "debate"?
No, although I do assert that it is a very strong tendency
It is a human tendency. At least two great examples of "binding" people to specific feelings and responses over the last hundred years were distinctly non-theist, Communist China and Nazi Germany. People have tried to control other people since time immemorial.
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Originally Posted by mordant
and that theists who do NOT believe that it must constrain others in any way, shape or form are fairly rare.
On the contrary, it is no rarer than atheists.
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Originally Posted by mordant
Religious faith outside of reactionary religious perspectives becomes something other than what faith is within reactionary religious perspectives
Transitional theist perspectives prove that that is not the case. As with most human systems, it is not a light switch that is flicked on or off, but a spectrum.
Yet again, it seems your inclination is to let others own part of reality to which you've abrogated your birthright. That's your choice. Don't afflict anyone else with your choice in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
i am not interested in debating or arguing or fighting or proving anything to anyone. in my view those are not avenues of growth and increased understanding, but rather ego-based exercises in one-upmanship [=the technique or practice of gaining a feeling of superiority over another person] which by design inherently preclude increased understanding. the tone and tenor of "discuss" (which i will do) is very different from "debate" or "argue" or "fight" (which i will not do). Discuss (in my view) fosters increased clarity and understanding and harmony, and is a win-win mindset. Debate (in my view) is based on and fosters hostility, contention, attack, and is a win-lose mindset.
It is evident that, at least online, fundamentalist atheism has little place for mature discussion.
that is a wise and valid approach, and a good bar to set. i totally agree. you are fully conscious, fully awake, fully aware. no drugs, no alcohol is even better, no Ouija boards, no spells, no magic, no invitations to dead people, no trying to make contact with UFOs, no trying to leave your body, no astral projection. if something feels remotely unwelcome or dangerous, send it away and leave. no hanging out with creepy people either. if they are not someone you trust at a common sense level or you are getting a bad vibe from them, then don't engage with them.
what you are trying to free your mind of is criticism that shuts down or drowns out or over-rides your perceptions.
treat everything you feel or notice or think or hear as "hmmm.....that's interesting" and then set it over on a shelf.
you don't want to lose touch with reality. you want to entirely retain your awareness and your feelings. awareness of your feelings is the best safety check you have. try not to ever override or shut down or talk yourself out of what you are feeling. and absolutely keep your common sense and your reality check. this all happens while you are going through your normal daily life: work, driving, exercise, listening to music that inspires you, all grounded in reality.
but be honest about your reasons for not doing something. if it is "this feels stupid" or "this feels silly" or "this is dumb" those are not warnings, just ego. if it is "i am afraid because something dangerous happened previously" then definitely take steps to be safe. don't play with stuff that attracts entities if that is what you're referring to.
I agree. One of the knock ons from rational thinking is not only to step back from buying into conclusions without looking at the alternatives, but neither to reject them without giving them a chance. I certainly didn't reject UFO's because science didn't recognize them. I don't dismiss NDE's as "this feels stupid" or "this feels silly" or "this is dumb". On the contrary, I think they are going to be most significant when we understand them. That is a rational and objective view, not a kneejerk 'common sense' (something regrettable regarded as reliable ) reaction.
It is actually applying a rational view rather than 'This is just silly" that led me to think a historical Jesus is likely and that the resurrection couldn't be dismissed just on the grounds of 'Miracles don't happen'. In fact that is a mix of red herring and circular argument.
I am just the same with god -claims and afterlife claims. It is not closed minded to apply reason or to require evidence. It is fact provides me with an anchor to reality so that I can consider such claims without fear of losing my reason.
It is not closed minded to apply reason or to require evidence. It is fact provides me with an anchor to reality so that I can consider such claims without fear of losing my reason.
as stated earlier, if you are fine with where you are, then don't bother.
enjoy!
as stated earlier, if you are fine with where you are, then don't bother.
enjoy!
That is a very disingenuous summation of what the user has been saying to you. Firstly you are trying, clearly, to make it sound like he is the one who is not bothering, when the opposite is in fact true in two ways.
One being that the user IS bothered.... he is bothered and invested in finding out what is actually TRUE about our universe and existence. And one way he is bothered to do that is by engaging with people of different views to engage with them as to the basis and substance of their views.
The other being that the only one "not bothered" or following the advice of "Don't bother" around here has consistently and almost solely been you. Every attempt to engage with you as to what the substance of your views is has met with you simply not bothering.... choosing as you do instead to not only dodge such engagement, but to erect egregiously false narratives about why you are not bothering which are designed to make it look like the failing lies with the person who was engaging with you.
And another large reason why the summation is disingenuous is that is not about being "fine" or "not fine" with where you are. The whole process of open mindedness is being in no way invested in where you are, or getting away from where you are.... but to acknowledge openly where you are and why..... and to be happy to go somewhere else should the evidence compel you to do so.
Too many people on forums like this misunderstand what open mindedness is in that regard. They instead think open mindedness means lending credence to new ideas for no good reason at all. There is a CHASM of difference between being open to new ideas, and lending them credence simply for the sake of it. The former is open minded. The latter is the abandonment of reason or, as others have put it, being so open minded your brain falls out.
as stated earlier, if you are fine with where you are, then don't bother.
enjoy!
Nozz was smart enough to see the inversion of the implication. I am not fine with where I am if that means not wanting to look further. If anything it is the one who thinks he has the right answer already and doesn't need (or want) to look anywhere else who is 'fine where they are'. I am willing to take on board new ideas if they have some merit. If debate, and science are regarded as not finding truth (as someone posted recently), then what are you going to use to determine what to believe?
I think that question was asked before. And Feelings and what works seemed to be the answer. I suppose that is one fine way to live and many regard it (being content with life and wanting nothing more) as the best we can do. Perhaps, but that wouldn't suit me. I regard curiosity as what makes humankind human. To deny that and just live in a state of Agape until you die is fine ..but it is 'fine where you are'.
The acceptance of not being fine where I am in the sense of not wanting to find out anything more is evidently negated by the liking for the tools of debate and science and the anchors of reality as a cable that ensures it is safe to launch the balloon.
If one doesn't do that, then the balloon can go anywhere. And it is a fascinating thing to watch and we have seen a few examples here (*koff* Geotheipareidolia"koff*) but it isn't for me.
Is it for the theist? I rather doubt it. As they have their various beliefs already, and suggestions that they consider alternative beliefs get a very dusty answer. It is hard to resist the conclusion that they are not only fine where they are but so fine where they are that any suggestion they look beyond and you got a fight on your hands.
So, the way it looks to me Tzap,,and Nozz, too...is that it is the believer who is painted into a corner. That the suggestion that we go beyond what science can show and buy into some sort of unproven belief backed up with personal feelings and what makes one feel good is not liberating, but restricting. Agree to differ, perhaps. Since reason and science are hardly going to be put out of business by Faith because they tend to deliver too much to be shown the door.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-31-2016 at 09:06 AM..
...I am not fine with where I am if that means not wanting to look further. I am willing to take on board new ideas if they have some merit. If debate, and science are regarded as not finding truth (as someone posted recently), then what are you going to use to determine what to believe?
The acceptance of not being fine where I am in the sense of not wanting to find out anything more is evidently negated by the liking for the tools of debate and science and the anchors of reality as a cable that ensures it is safe to launch the balloon.
That the suggestion that we go beyond what science can show and buy into some sort of unproven belief backed up with personal feelings and what makes one feel good is not liberating, but restricting.
.
this is great, you are already doing the homework. excellent!
the power of the universe is at your command. you direct it and use it through your thought, speech, action, and feelings. you are literally creating everything you experience in your life. you either do it consciously (through awareness and attention and intention) or passively allow it to happen "by default" and then it is being haphazardly driven by whatever random thoughts or beliefs you have that may not be serving you well at all and creating less than optimum results.
when you can identify these within yourself, then you are able to edit them and get results. let's list some you've already identified and put them on the menu sorted into categories. this is the menu that you order from, and the universe delivers to you in your daily life. Menu categories are intention, resistance, beliefs, commands. An example, taking from some recent posts, change it and make it your own.
this is what i want or desire / this is my intention
safety in every place in my life
protection
learning
i want to look further
i want to move forward, expand, advance to the next level
clarity
truth
i am willing to take on new ideas with merit
i want to know more about __________
i want to understand more about _____________
these are obstacles or barriers / this is resistance to taking the next step
looking to others to tell me what to believe, instead of finding it out for myself
science must validate this for me to consider it
if it is not part of science i am unwilling to explore it
i require evidence before i take on a new idea
an idea must have merit for me to consider it (define merit for myself)
how do i determine what to believe
how do i know what to do next
how do i know if this will work
these are related beliefs / that i have identified / keep the ones that move you forward; revise the ones that don't allow you to advance
i am curious
i am excited about learning new things
only science is true
if it can't be proven by science then it is not valid
the way to get to the truth is through debate
for a belief to have merit it must be ___________
it's not safe to try new things because ___________
this makes me feel safe ________
here are some commands / it's like giving your order to the waitress at the restaurant, you are ordering off the menu, you are telling the Universe send me this
send me increased clarity
identify the truth for me in this situation
show me the next step in advancing to the next level
keep me safe and protected at all times and in every situation
only send me information guidance and assistance that is safe in every way
i call forth the power of this ____ (person, place, thing, animal) for protection *
increase my desire for that which is good for me; remove my desire for that which is not good for me
i release that which no longer serves me
show me how to know what to believe
*[think of a time or place or person or animal or setting that makes you feel safe and protected; you are calling forth that. it can be real or not. I've never even seen a white tiger or snow leopard but to me they feel strong, powerful. I was in a horrible 3-car collision that nearly took my life and there was considerable trauma, in recovering from that accident i got a huge 5-foot long stuffed white tiger and kept it in my room for years, for me it evoked strong protection while i recovered from the trauma. If you feel an affinity to someplace powerful in nature like Mt. Rainier or around big trees, call forth that. when i was a kid in a chaotic unsafe house growing up, i would go hide in the woods and climb a large pine tree to get away from the chaos indoors. To this day i only ever always live with large evergreens right outside my window. it has always felt like they protect me and they are looking out for me. this part does not have to make sense to anyone except you, it is all about what for you evokes a strong sense of safety and protection. It can be a guardian angel. It can be a hero you admire from your own life or from history.]
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2016 at 08:25 PM..
if you keep on doing the same thing you have always done, you will keep on getting the same results.
one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
if you are not "fine with where you are" then something needs to change. look at what you want. look at your resistance.
and i believe you that you are sincere in wanting more.
however until your desire for xyz, is strong enough to overcome your resistance to abc, you will remain in the same place.
you are in charge. the power of the universe is at your command. which is both frustrating (because it requires change), and exhilarating (because the process is so exciting and engaging and powerful). the wall you are hitting is you will never get evidence from someone else. however you will get substantiation from your own experience. you hold the key. you are in charge of all the parameters.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2016 at 08:54 PM..
The acceptance of not being fine where I am in the sense of not wanting to find out anything more is evidently negated by the liking for the tools of debate and science
that is correct. excellent.
this is an example of your "not being fine where you are " and your "desire to find out more"
are held back and limited and negated (as in = negative) and hog-tied
by your beliefs about debate and science, and your resistance to editing the belief, which would dissolve the obstacles
you want more (reaching for something), but you have imposed restrictions that allow you from getting it (pushing it away)
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-31-2016 at 08:55 PM..
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) reaction. 
