Internet atheism: one of secularism's biggest enemies (hell, Revelations, after life)
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And what's a bigger shame is that these fundamentalist atheists are not indicative of the broader population of atheists, agnostics and syncretic theists, who are besmirched by non-Abrahamic association to the offensive fundamentalists.
It would be a shame if they (passing over the inappropriate smeary of 'fundamentalist atheists' - I translate that as 'outspoken') simply rejected the religious claims without knowing why. I would much prefer that they consider the arguments on both sides, and they won't hear them if we don't carry on these debates.
(passing over the inappropriate smeary of 'fundamentalist atheists' - I translate that as 'outspoken')
This isn't about being outspoken. It is about projecting intractably dogmatic perspectives regarding spirituality, refusing to grant the value others derive from that which they value, in the same way fundamentalist Christians refuse to grant the value non-Christians, including atheists, derive from that which they value.
victorian here is 100% correct. nothing makes atheists look worse than their own posts and the language they use.
Nice false generalization there. The reality however is that there are people in just about every movement who let the movement down with their conduct and their words. Take JeffBase, Esubis, Vizio and a few others on here who's own words set Christianity in such an abhorrent light that I can only imagine the average Christian cringing in embarrassment.
Do atheists have the same thing? Of course. They are not immune from being human either. There have been examples of people on that side of the fence who have been horrifically embarrassing too. Including on this very forum.
Name calling, offense, insults, threats, misrepresentation and more.... it happens on both sides. When I see it happen on my "side" in such forums I try to pull the person aside and help them raise their game. And the treatment people like Jeff get.... mostly or at least significantly from other Christians not atheists..... suggests they are doing the same.
So do not even attempt to paint this, or imply this, as being an atheist issue. It is a human issue. Regardless of whether the people doing it are atheists, theists, republicans, democrats, native, inpats or expats, black, white, Yellow or anything else. There are bad apples in every movement.
But if you did want to make a pissing contest out of it, out of people posting offensive tripe that.... as you said.... serves only to "push people away"...... then I am game. I am happy to play that game with you. I throw out Jeffs atheist and homosexual hating wealth of posts, side swipe you with Supersouls blatantly made up anti homosexual and abortion science, and upper cut you with Bulmas constant name calling and misrepresentation of atheists.
What are you going to hit back with? Where is this wealth of posts where atheist posts and language make them look bad that even begin to compare? Game on.
This isn't about being outspoken. It is about projecting intractably dogmatic perspectives regarding spirituality, refusing to grant the value others derive from that which they value,
I agree. But our objections to intractably dogmatic claims and refusal (on the part of some Christians, at least) to grant others the freedom to live according to their own values is what we are outspoken about. And it is right that we should be and wrong that we are accused of being "Fundamentalists" because we do.
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in the same way fundamentalist Christians refuse to grant the value non-Christians, including atheists, derive from that which they value.
I thought that was whom you were talking about. It isn't us, really, just because we think that ..what what the slogan?...teach the debate, on the Forums if not in the classrooms.
What exactly was Mordant's argument? The title of this thread is "Internet atheism: one of secularism's biggest enemies". That is what I am saying. That the visceral, loud, annoying brand of atheism that has become so prevalent is hindering, not helping, the struggle for secular government.
I am not "debating atheism" as that is tiresome. I am debating WHICH TACTICS ARE MOST EFFECTIVE IN ADVANCING SECULARISM.
I don't see why that is so hard to understand...
What I cant understand is why you seem to be displaying the same behavior you find so offensive. A comment like this is completely unnecessary: I want a secular government...and the biggest thing scaring away the vast majority of Americans who agree are the neckbearded, My Little Pony addicted and smug collection of basement dwellers we like to call "reddit atheists".
I use Reddit for my support group and have ventured onto the Atheism sub a few times. Maybe there is a sub for debate or something in which case I would imagine what you are talking about would happen. I have no clue what you are talking about and you didn't bother you give specific examples as if we are to take you interpretation at face value. You also stated that "the biggest thing scaring away the vast majority...." and failed to provide any source for that claim. Without a source it is just opinion and will be dismissed.
In the land of Reddit anecdata is not data. Speculation is not data. Opinion is not data. Perception is not data. I think the confusion you have in understanding may be partly because you make claims and do not back them up while Reddit is all about that. So again, link? If you really are interested in changing someone else's behavior you have to specifically point to the behavior and not use generalizations.
Last edited by L8Gr8Apost8; 05-19-2016 at 05:33 AM..
Reason: sticky m
victorian here is 100% correct.
nothing makes atheists look worse than their own posts and the language they use.
every offensive thread, every name-calling post, and there are hundreds of threads and thousands of such posts here on CD, is another nail into the coffin of atheists making themselves look bad. Their behavior renders their message unattractive, unappealing, uninviting; and very effectively pushes people away.
How did you miss the name calling in the OP's post?
in other words, you can dish it out but you can't take it? it's OK to use sarcasm, and insults on others, but not for others to use them on you?
I usually give him a pass as his increasingly less frequent lapses into condescension is largely youthful hubris that life is clearly already beating out of him. In this case I pushed back against intrusion into a legitimate personal boundary.
Don't try to compare that to an illegitimate personal boundary that basically says "I must never be made uncomfortable by challenging my base assumptions even if they are dogma to my religion. My base assumptions are unquestionable because god almighty himself approves of them."
I agree. But our objections to intractably dogmatic claims and refusal (on the part of some Christians, at least) to grant others the freedom to live according to their own values is what we are outspoken about.
The implicit quandary is illusory: Consistent rejection and condemnation of intolerance is not, itself, intolerance. Similarly, consistent rejection and condemnation of dogmatism is not dogmatism.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
And it is right that we should be and wrong that we are accused of being "Fundamentalists" because we do.
No one calls atheists who defend the right of everyone to make their own meaning and value what they each individually choose to value "fundamentalists". The fundamentalists are those who deny the existence of mystery, or condemn meaning-making that fills the gaps left by mystery, when such meaning-making substantially affects only voluntary subscribers, and when there is no objective truth regarding such gaps.
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