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Badlander,I have to disagree with you on that. In Alberta, the directives ARE about bathrooms, which I don't care about, AND change rooms, which I very much care about. In particular, the edict that was handed down if a young teenage girl is uncomfortable that a penis bearing self identified trans-gender person chooses to use the female change room, it is the GIRL who has to move to accommodate the trans-gender if the girl is uncomfortable.
I can not and will not find that acceptable. I have no problem a school finding an accommodation for the transgendered person, but to force a young teenaged girl to be in the same change room as someone with a penis is wrong. And to force the girl out is even more wrong.
I can't see how you could be supportive of the edict that was laid down.
I don't know what rationalization was given but it's obvious that one or the other has to leave if there's a concern. And I can think of two arguments why it should be the privileged / majority class member.
One, transgender people already have the harder row to how in society and have been the ones who have been taunted, marginalized, etc. Your daughter has not. It is the privileged class that is correcting this and that should, arguably, be making it right in the edge cases.
Two, in many, arguably most, civilized countries, body shame or embarrassment is just not an issue. The Fins love their saunas, which are generally open to both sexes and in which the users (saunees??) are generally completely naked together. The Danes not infrequently swim naked at public beaches, with both mixed sexes and age groups, and think nothing of it. In neither of these example cases do spontaneous orgies or rapes break out. In point of fact it's just not a sexual context. Only in America are nude beaches secluded and hush-hush. In Europe they are everywhere. And it's a non-problem.
So if heterosexuals can see each other naked without the sky falling then heterosexual females need not engage in pearl-clutching to see a transgender woman who may still have male sex organs. In my view these concerns are a product of how our children have been socialized overtly and implicitly to be repressed around sexuality -- theirs and others.
All that said, I understand how you feel subjectively about it. Millennials in the US are increasingly okay with things such as taking showers with their children even past infancy. And sharing pictures of it on social media. I am not comfortable with that because I have been socialized to see it as exhibitionism and also, I have always lived in fear, as a man, of being accused of having prurient interest in my own children. The Moldy Marvins of the world have ruined such options for normal, healthy men.
I was acquainted with a guy on an internet forum some years back who was sort of a semi-nudist who sometimes walked around his house in the buff when his children were around. One day one of his kids off-handedly mentioned this to a playmate who mentioned it to their parents who mentioned it to child protective services. The couple's children were removed from the home on this third-hand accusation, no questions asked, over the objections of the mother as well as the father (and of course the children) -- not an uncommon tale of CPS overreach -- and they would only return the kids to the mother if the father was not in the situation. So he had to divorce his wife and leave the state. Once she had the kids back she sold the house, moved out of state, and the father rejoined the family. This is a crazy situation that I would not want to experience just because of some desire to make a point about being okay with seeing the human form. It's just not important enough to take the risk in my view, even if I felt that strongly about it.
So ... I understand your concern and I understand the concern of transgender people equally. My cop-out is I no longer have minor children, my daughter and her husband thread this needle for their kids and seem not concerned about it at all. So I pass the torch to you, my good friend, and do not envy you dealing with this issue.
Badlander,I have to disagree with you on that. In Alberta, the directives ARE about bathrooms, which I don't care about, AND change rooms, which I very much care about. In particular, the edict that was handed down if a young teenage girl is uncomfortable that a penis bearing self identified trans-gender person chooses to use the female change room, it is the GIRL who has to move to accommodate the trans-gender if the girl is uncomfortable.
I can not and will not find that acceptable. I have no problem a school finding an accommodation for the transgendered person, but to force a young teenaged girl to be in the same change room as someone with a penis is wrong. And to force the girl out is even more wrong.
I can't see how you could be supportive of the edict that was laid down.
I was referring specifically to similar laws being proposed or passed in Republican states.
It's been too long since I was a kid to know if girls would feel offended if a boy they thought of as another girl showered with them. As a grandfather I do not see in different then if a lesbian was showering with them either but as I said before I would need to discuss it with the granddaughters before I could make a stance. I also never went to a school where I did not know everyone 3 or 4 grades either side of me and that could make a difference in my thinking.
As far as what is happening in Alberta I do not see how you can not see others having a different view from yours. I stand firmly on the undecided as far as changing rooms go.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by badlander
I was referring specifically to similar laws being proposed or passed in Republican states.
It's been too long since I was a kid to know if girls would feel offended if a boy they thought of as another girl showered with them. As a grandfather I do not see in different then if a lesbian was showering with them either but as I said before I would need to discuss it with the granddaughters before I could make a stance. I also never went to a school where I did not know everyone 3 or 4 grades either side of me and that could make a difference in my thinking.
As far as what is happening in Alberta I do not see how you can not see others having a different view from yours. I stand firmly on the undecided as far as changing rooms go.
That is one I have pretty firm convictions on, but then I see the majority girls' perspectives. As I said, bathrooms, meh, who cares. It is different, and to me, it has nothing to do with religion, but common sense, especially in those teen years.
I find it strange that people who are not bible worshipers know much more about the bible than bible thumpers.
No wonder this religion is a failed institution. There is nothing at all spiritual in worshiping a god like this one, or even worshiping a book that has this garbage written in it.
Do you understand that God gave some explicit instructions to the people of ancient Israel, and that no Christian today is an ancient Israelite? Does that make sense?
Have you ever been the victim of a baby with evil intent? I'm guessing not, along with every other human that's ever existed - I'm taking that as evidence of babies lacking evil extent.
Throwing chewed up baby food, doesn't count as evil btw.
Yes. Have you ever tried to take a toy away from a 2 year old that would happily rip your arm off and beat you over the head with it if he/she could?
I have. I have 2 daughters. I also have nieces and nephews. They are like everyone else. Most of us learn to control our anger as we age, but some don't.
It would be much more accurate to say that the humans that committed mass murder claimed that God told them to do it. There is zero evidence that God actually told anyone to perform executions.
Except for God's Word as it is recorded. There is evidence, but not that you're willing to consider.
What is the actual fear here? I honestly don't understand the issue. If someone looked like a woman and used the woman's bathroom who would know anyway? Could you(or anyone who has a problem with this) bullet point out what you see being the dangers?
I've explained it. My kids shower at school. I don't want boys in the locker room with them.
I also do not want them going into a women's bathroom where I cannot see what is going on, knowing that it is possible for a man to enter that bathroom where they are in a potential state of undress.
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