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I agree there are two living systems, the physical body and our embryo Spirit, that are both subject to evolutionary and maturation processes. The spiritual evolution species-wide can be seen as memetic and the physical evolution is biological.
Surely you can see why this simpler metaphysics which sees no difference between the mental (or cognitive) and the spiritual looks like classic dualism to me. The biggest problem with this is it doesn't agree with the objective scientific physical evidence.
You: two parts - physical body, spiritual mind.
Me: four parts - physical biological body, physical memetic mind, spiritual body, and spiritual mind.
The duality of physical living organisms making choices gives rise to a duality of spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The maturation process determines the degree of dominance each living system has. Initially at birth, the body has complete dominance and the Spirit is but a seed so concerns of survival and physical development dominate. As the Spirit matures it achieves more dominance (strongly affected by the memetic spiritual evolutionary stage of the species). This produces the conflicts you refer to. But unlike you, I see the conflicts as the process for gaining dominance. The more self-control our Spirits exert over the drives generated by biology, the stronger and more mature our Spirit becomes - vice versa.
And again this sound a lot like Gnosticism. For me, with regards to the conflict between mind and body, there is only the question of whether the mind is truly a living organism. If the needs and drives of the body dominate they can make the mind nothing more than a function of the brain and an appendage of the body with insignificant life of its own. That the organism does things for its own reasons in response to the environment is the essence of the life process. If the environment (and for the mind this is the body) dominates the organism then it has very little (if any) life in it.
::Bursting in:: They way we think and what we think is as much a real part of our reality as anything you consider material, Arq!
I agree there are two living systems, the physical body and our embryo Spirit, that are both subject to evolutionary and maturation processes. The spiritual evolution species-wide can be seen as memetic and the physical evolution is biological. The maturation process determines the degree of dominance each living system has. Initially at birth, the body has complete dominance and the Spirit is but a seed so concerns of survival and physical development dominate. As the Spirit matures it achieves more dominance (strongly affected by the memetic spiritual evolutionary stage of the species). This produces the conflicts you refer to. But unlike you, I see the conflicts as the process for gaining dominance. The more self-control our Spirits exert over the drives generated by biology, the stronger and more mature our Spirit becomes - vice versa.
I tend to agree and consider such carnal and worldly aberrations as contra-spiritual.Agreed. The dearth of consideration given to thoughts and feelings AS real phenomena existing within reality and not "just fleeting thoughts and feelings" or whatever, is the primary reason they remain in the penumbra of deliberations on their cognitive products which comprise our very character and essence as Spirit beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
Surely you can see why this simpler metaphysics which sees no difference between the mental (or cognitive) and the spiritual looks like classic dualism to me. The biggest problem with this is it doesn't agree with the objective scientific physical evidence.
You: two parts - physical body, spiritual mind.
Me: four parts - physical biological body, physical memetic mind, spiritual body, and spiritual mind.
The duality of physical living organisms making choices gives rise to a duality of spirit.
Oh but my view does agree with the objective scientific physical evidence. The locus of consciousness as a phenomenon is key. Physicalists maintain it is in the brain just because it is produced by the brain. But this ignores the composition of the manifestation of consciousness. It is not individual neural activity. It manifests as an "EM-like" composite of neural activity in resonance. Neural activity as a phenomenon is measured at the EM level of existence and physical matter could not possibly be the locus of any unmeasurable composite of such "EM-like" activity. That leaves the unmeasurable spectrum of activity like the dark stuff as the locus of the composite consciousness we experience as Self. I'm afraid I don't see your four abstractions as simpler than my two. You simply coopted the different evolutionary and maturation processes. You seem inclined to pretend they are separate from what they are operating on.We are indeed dual beings, biological and spiritual, but the biological is merely the factory. The Spirit is the real product.
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And again this sound a lot like Gnosticism. For me, with regards to the conflict between mind and body, there is only the question of whether the mind is truly a living organism. If the needs and drives of the body dominate they can make the mind nothing more than a function of the brain and an appendage of the body with insignificant life of its own. That the organism does things for its own reasons in response to the environment is the essence of the life process. If the environment (and for the mind this is the body) dominates the organism then it has very little (if any) life in it.
I don't see how this differs from my view at all. Our Spirit is a seed of "Self" impregnating the body and maturing "embryo-like" through Self-control into an "infant Spirit" preparing to be "born again" upon our physical death.
I believe the link which makes the spirit grow from the physical as Paul describes it, are the choices which living things make. Indeed I think the spirit can be said to be the product of our choices. Thus things in this life which are not a product of our choices would have no direct impact on the spirit. It is only indirectly as the context in which our choices are made can they have an impact. You could say that have some role in our identity but they cannot confine the spirit the way choices can.
So I guess that's where I was going with the question on brain damage, etc. If the choices I make are hindered, so far as we can tell anyway, due to physical impairments....does that affect the spirit portion? As in, the potential for growth?
And as an aside....do you think all beings with consciousness have spirits of some sort (e.g. dogs, rats, lizards)? And if so, are there differences in their spirit forms vs a (physical) human's?
Oh but my view does agree with the objective scientific physical evidence.
Yes because it is demonstrable that cognitive processes can be altered by physical interference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The locus of consciousness as a phenomenon is key.
The locus of consciousness is in the life process because the description of how that process works also fits the definition of consciousness. An organism cannot have life without some form of awareness of both self and its environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Physicalists maintain it is in the brain just because it is produced by the brain.
Yes, MOST do, but I do not. They typically site the evidence to support this. BUT I can satisfy the evidence without such a position. I still fit the definition of physicalism because I believe the mind is just as physical as the body and this explains the relationship between them as something which operates by the same natural laws. But there is still an effective dualism because they are two different living organisms with their own needs and inheritance mechanisms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
But this ignores the composition of the manifestation of consciousness. It is not individual neural activity. It manifests as an "EM-like" composite of neural activity in resonance. Neural activity as a phenomenon is measured at the EM level of existence and physical matter could not possibly be the locus of any unmeasurable composite of such "EM-like" activity. That leaves the unmeasurable spectrum of activity like the dark stuff as the locus of the composite consciousness we experience as Self.
I don't know whether your argument works against those you speak of and I have little reason to care since I am not one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I'm afraid I don't see your four abstractions as simpler than my two.
Huh??? I said YOUR position was the simpler one! This demonstrates you are not reading what I wrote carefully enough and thus your responses are becoming meaningless and I thus I will not even respond to your poorly aimed speculations about what I think or what "I have done."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
We are indeed dual beings, biological and spiritual, but the biological is merely the factory.
That is your view but it is not my view. My view is that there are two different dualities operating -- one between the physical and the spiritual, and another between the mind and body. Neither are like the classic dualism for they are within a rational monistic framework. The physical and spiritual are simply different forms of the same energy-like stuff, while the body and mind are different living organisms which are both physical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The Spirit is the real product.
There are tangent points like this of agreement (a commonality of some conclusions), but the metaphysics we use is quite different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I don't see how this differs from my view at all. Our Spirit is a seed of "Self" impregnating the body and maturing "embryo-like" through Self-control into an "infant Spirit" preparing to be "born again" upon our physical death.
This is VERY much like the Gnostic view and quite different from mine. In my view it is the physical which is the seed from which the spirit grows, just as Paul says in 1 Cor 15. The living organism makes choices which gives form to the spirit that has associated/identified itself with the physical organism. I certainly do not believe in rebirth or the transmigration of the soul.
Last edited by mitchellmckain; 06-30-2016 at 11:34 PM..
So I guess that's where I was going with the question on brain damage, etc. If the choices I make are hindered, so far as we can tell anyway, due to physical impairments....does that affect the spirit portion? As in, the potential for growth?
If their are no choices then there can be no resulting constraint on the spirit. This is really no different than the fact that human being die at all ages and the spirit reflects the differences, i.e. if choices are hindered then the spirit would be more child-like. This is only common sense.
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Originally Posted by MartinEden99
And as an aside....do you think all beings with consciousness have spirits of some sort (e.g. dogs, rats, lizards)?
Yes, and since I believe all living organisms have some form/level of consciousness, I believe all living organisms of every kind have a spirit. The spirits are not the same, of course, any more than the living organisms are the same.
To put it another way, I believe life (and consciousness) are highly quantitative. Different living organisms are alive to different degrees, and the life potential of the spirits are likewise different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinEden99
And if so, are there differences in their spirit forms vs a (physical) human's?
Of course. The biggest difference is the human mind, for there is no evidence of this in animals. Consciousness, yes. All kinds of brain functions approaching our own, yes. But not the self-organizing process we call the mind. The evidence we have for the human mind which are the competing needs and its different (memetic) form of inheritance (capable of a similar level of encoding to DNA) is not seen in any of the animals (because this requires an abstraction capable language). It would be very exciting to me if there were, such as among the dolphins or orca. But the evidence is not supporting this.
Oh but my view does agree with the objective scientific physical evidence. The locus of consciousness as a phenomenon is key. Physicalists maintain it is in the brain just because it is produced by the brain. But this ignores the composition of the manifestation of consciousness. It is not individual neural activity. It manifests as an "EM-like" composite of neural activity in resonance. Neural activity as a phenomenon is measured at the EM level of existence and physical matter could not possibly be the locus of any unmeasurable composite of such "EM-like" activity. That leaves the unmeasurable spectrum of activity like the dark stuff as the locus of the composite consciousness we experience as Self. I'm afraid I don't see your four abstractions as simpler than my two. You simply coopted the different evolutionary and maturation processes. You seem inclined to pretend they are separate from what they are operating on.We are indeed dual beings, biological and spiritual, but the biological is merely the factory. The Spirit is the real product.
I don't see how this differs from my view at all. Our Spirit is a seed of "Self" impregnating the body and maturing "embryo-like" through Self-control into an "infant Spirit" preparing to be "born again" upon our physical death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
Yes because it is demonstrable that cognitive processes can be altered by physical interference.
Agreed.
Quote:
The locus of consciousness is in the life process because the description of how that process works also fits the definition of consciousness. An organism cannot have life without some form of awareness of both self and its environment.
Agreed, but within the greater reality, it must have its locus like the EM radiation we can measure even though we cannot measure it directly. The EM radiation in the form of light from distant galaxies etc. resides in the entire universe until it is transformed into images in our instruments or eyes. Since we don't know what transforms "EM-like" consciousness into something else we cannot speculate about its fate within the entire universe.
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Yes, MOST do, but I do not. They typically site the evidence to support this. BUT I can satisfy the evidence without such a position. I still fit the definition of physicalism because I believe the mind is just as physical as the body and this explains the relationship between them as something which operates by the same natural laws. But there is still an effective dualism because they are two different living organisms with their own needs and inheritance mechanisms.
Agreed.
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I don't know whether your argument works against those you speak of and I have little reason to care since I am not one of them.
Great.
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Huh??? I said YOUR position was the simpler one! This demonstrates you are not reading what I wrote carefully enough and thus your responses are becoming meaningless and I thus I will not even respond to your poorly aimed speculations about what I think or what "I have done."
Calm down, fella. I am an old geezer and it is entirely possible for me to misunderstand you without malice. I hope that isn't really sufficient to render our discussions invalid.
Quote:
That is your view but it is not my view. My view is that there are two different dualities operating -- one between the physical and the spiritual, and another between the mind and body. Neither are like the classic dualism for they are within a rational monistic framework. The physical and spiritual are simply different forms of the same energy-like stuff, while the body and mind are different living organisms which are both physical.
I don't see the distinction between the physical and the body or the spiritual and the mind. To me, they are the same thing and ARE both comprised of the "same stuff" but in very different forms (matter) and (energy). The differ only in their vibrational frequency ranges.
Quote:
There are tangent points like this of agreement (a commonality of some conclusions), but the metaphysics we use is quite different.
Agreed. I am fascinated by the congruencies and puzzled by the differences. That is why discussing them is valuable.
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This is VERY much like the Gnostic view and quite different from mine. In my view it is the physical which is the seed from which the spirit grows, just as Paul says in 1 Cor 15. The living organism makes choices which gives form to the spirit that has associated/identified itself with the physical organism. I certainly do not believe in rebirth or the transmigration of the soul.
I donot believe in reincarnation or transmigration, but I DO believe we must be "born again" as Spirit to join God who IS Spirit. Perhaps we need to provide our interpretations of 1 Cor 15, especially verses 35 - 58 to see why we differ. How do you interpret:
1 Corinthians 15:35-55 King James Version (KJV)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
This does not read as though a physical body is the seed, but is the receptacle for the seed.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Again it seems the seed is sown in a natural corruptible body but it develops power and control and is raised in an incorruptible spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Thus Christ was MADE a quickening Spirit. He was NOT one originally any more than we are. As verse 36 says "36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" It is Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit that saved us by connecting His perfect quickened human consciousness (Spirit) to God's Spirit.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?[/quote]
This seems straightforward to me. Death is the vehicle by which we achieve incorruptible life as Spirit as Jesus did. Death is not to be feared. It is our birthing event. A new beginning, not an end.
I donot believe in reincarnation or transmigration, but I DO believe we must be "born again" as Spirit to join God who IS Spirit.
Ok, I guess it was the Gnostic idea of a spiritual seed and the way you talked about being "born again" at death which made me think you were talking about transmigration.
Christians usually think of being born again as happening during life when the spirit is resurrected and given new life. And while some like me do think of death as being much like a second birth, we usually do not combine that with the idea of being born again as talked about by Jesus in John 3. Taking a look at John 3 I see nothing which either excludes or requires being born again to be something that happens at death.
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1 Cor 15
I do not use the KJV which was constructed for political and poetical purposes and is not updated according to the discovery and evaluation of older manuscripts like the revised standard version.
Quote:
35 But some one will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
Quite clear. What is sown is not the spiritual body but the physical body which dies and is buried (sown). But if there is any uncertainty all you have to do is keep reading because Paul repeats himself many times.
Quote:
38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
Things have different bodies because they grow from different seeds.
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42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
What is sown is the physical body which is perishable and what is raised is a spiritual body which is imperishable.
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43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
What is sown is the physical body which is food for worms. What is raised is the spiritual body which "neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal" (i.e. it is not subject to external forces of any kind).
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44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Once again it is the physical body which is the seed to be sown and the spiritual body which grows from it!
Quote:
If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
The reason there is a spiritual body is because there is a physical body from which it grows! This also makes it clear that the previous talk does not mean the existence of physical body and the spiritual body are exclusive and do not overlap.
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45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Paul sees a parallel in history, where Adam became a living physical creature but it wasn't until Jesus that we could see a living spirit which becomes a source of life to others.
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46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
First there is only the physical body AND THEN from this the spiritual body grows! So even if they overlap, it is the physical body which is first not the spiritual body.
Quote:
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[b] also bear the image of the man of heaven.
The physical body represented by Adam is made of the stuff of the earth, but the spiritual body represented by the resurrected Jesus is made of the stuff of heaven.
Quote:
50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Eternal life, the kingdom of God, and heaven are all limited to the spiritual body for the physical body belongs to the laws of nature according which the physical body must decay and pass away.
Last edited by mitchellmckain; 07-01-2016 at 01:16 PM..
Agreed.Agreed, but within the greater reality, it must have its locus like the EM radiation we can measure even though we cannot measure it directly. The EM radiation in the form of light from distant galaxies etc. resides in the entire universe until it is transformed into images in our instruments or eyes. Since we don't know what transforms "EM-like" consciousness into something else we cannot speculate about its fate within the entire universe. Agreed. Great. Calm down, fella. I am an old geezer and it is entirely possible for me to misunderstand you without malice. I hope that isn't really sufficient to render our discussions invalid.
I don't see the distinction between the physical and the body or the spiritual and the mind. To me, they are the same thing and ARE both comprised of the "same stuff" but in very different forms (matter) and (energy). The differ only in their vibrational frequency ranges.
Agreed. I am fascinated by the congruencies and puzzled by the differences. That is why discussing them is valuable.I donot believe in reincarnation or transmigration, but I DO believe we must be "born again" as Spirit to join God who IS Spirit. Perhaps we need to provide our interpretations of 1 Cor 15, especially verses 35 - 58 to see why we differ. How do you interpret:
1 Corinthians 15:35-55 King James Version (KJV)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
This does not read as though a physical body is the seed, but is the receptacle for the seed.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Again it seems the seed is sown in a natural corruptible body but it develops power and control and is raised in an incorruptible spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Thus Christ was MADE a quickening Spirit. He was NOT one originally any more than we are. As verse 36 says "36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" It is Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit that saved us by connecting His perfect quickened human consciousness (Spirit) to God's Spirit.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
This seems straightforward to me. Death is the vehicle by which we achieve incorruptible life as Spirit as Jesus did. Death is not to be feared. It is our birthing event. A new beginning, not an end.
I await your interpretations.
My responses are in Blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
Quite clear. What is sown is not the spiritual body but the physical body which dies and is buried (sown). But if there is any uncertainty all you have to do is keep reading because Paul repeats himself many times. Bodies do not get sown, seeds do and in this case, it is sown IN a physical body.
Things have different bodies because they grow from different seeds. True, but they don't have different bodies because they were sown by different bodies.
What is sown is the physical body which is perishable and what is raised is a spiritual body which is imperishable.
What is sown is the physical body which is food for worms. What is raised is the spiritual body which "neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal" (i.e. it is not subject to external forces of any kind). What is sown is a seed IN a physical body (the different "soil, sand, rock") of Matt. What is raised is a spiritual body that has grown from the seed WITHIN the physical body. The physical body (placenta) is discarded at birth (Death) and the spiritual body is raised an infant Spirit.
Once again it is the physical body which is the seed to be sown and the spiritual body which grows from it! Seeds are sown, NOT bodies. The body is the "soil" in which the seed is sown and must grow sufficiently to be born as Spirit upon the death of the physical body.
The reason there is a spiritual body is because there is a physical body from which it grows! The reason there is a spiritual body is because there is a physical body within which it grows (like a womb, births require a womb) to be born as Spirit.
Paul sees a parallel in history, where Adam became a living physical creature but it wasn't until Jesus that we could see a living spirit which becomes a source of life to others. Jesus was the firstborn of us to be born as Spirit and we are to follow Him by loving God and each other as He did. His agape love was perfect and ours will be imperfect, but enough to be adopted with Him as children of God (infant Spirits) upon our death.
First there is only the physical body AND THEN from this the spiritual body grows! We agree on virtually everything except the nature of seed versus body. The physical body is born from a seed. It is not a seed. The spiritual body is born from a seed that grows within our physical body. The birth is the death of the physical body.
The physical body represented by Adam is made of the stuff of the earth, but the spiritual body represented by the resurrected Jesus is made of the stuff of heaven. True. Spirit is of heaven because God IS Spirit.
Eternal life, the kingdom of God, and heaven are all limited to the spiritual body for the physical body belongs to the laws of nature according which the physical body must decay and pass away.
Ok, I guess it was the Gnostic idea of a spiritual seed and the way you talked about being "born again" at death which made me think you were talking about transmigration.
Christians usually think of being born again as happening during life when the spirit is resurrected and given new life. And while some like me do think of death as being much like a second birth, we usually do not combine that with the idea of being born again as talked about by Jesus in John 3. Taking a look at John 3 I see nothing which either excludes or requires being born again to be something that happens at death.
Jesus explained to Nicodemus that "Flesh is born as Flesh. Spirit is born as Spirit." Birth of Spirit requires the death of the flesh, so it cannot happen while the flesh is alive. Those born of Spirit are like the wind and goeth where they will. Know of anyone in a physical body who can do that???
Jesus explained to Nicodemus that "Flesh is born as Flesh. Spirit is born as Spirit." Birth of Spirit requires the death of the flesh, so it cannot happen while the flesh is alive. Those born of Spirit are like the wind and goeth where they will. Know of anyone in a physical body who can do that???
Aang, avatar the last air ended.
Sorry you guys need some levity
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