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There was no time before creation. There was eternity. How exactly do you place a non existent measure onto it? Saying "2000 years before creation" is bogus, as there was no concept of "year" Or any other measure of time.
The Torah and Hashem are not in the realm of time and space, that is correct.
time and space are artificial constructs for this physical dimension that human beings inhabit. so just as the soul is not bound by time and space, but the physical body is; ..... so too Torah is not bound by time and space, but for purposes of the human calendar and human history, we can speak in terms of years and when the Torah was physically given to physical humans. Hashem created the Torah as a blueprint used to create the universe. Which is why through the Torah we can gain a deeper understanding of the universe, and our place in it.
that is my simple understanding
here is a citation
"Of course, the Torah itself is much older than that. Our Tradition tells us that Hashem created the Torah, both the Written and the Oral, 2,000 years before He created the universe. Hashem used it as a blueprint when He created the universe. And Hashem then kept it until it was time for us to receive it.
"(The approach of this article, as well as some of the proofs, I took primarily from the works of Rabbi Avigdor Miller, especially Sing You Righteous, paragraphs 102-121.)"
Thank you. The first talks of the Torah written in fire before the Creation. But that doesn't explain how Noah heard of it. Specifically knowledge of ritual purity and the method of making a sacrifice. And it goes on to say that Jewish scholars argue against the idea though I don't myself have a problem with it if you parse it as 'written in fire in the mind of God'.
The next seemed to talk more of a sense of righteous behaviour -which you'd expect from those talking to God. But that is not the same thing as a set out Torah of rituals such as Noah would have needed to know about ritually clean animals. Of course, one can Amend the scripture to have God tell Noah all that he needed, but which apparently needed to be given again at mt.Siniai. I personally don't hold with rewriting the Bible in order to correct the omissions and obliterate logical problems..
The third ref.I couldn't get at all.
There are a variety of spots in the book of Genesis in which the forefathers act in a way which seems either in accordance with or contrary to biblical/Mosaic rules. The sages who exegetically derived that the forefathers learned the laws destined to be given at Sinai analyze these cases and explain how they might or might not have been bound by those laws. So the idea that Noah was taught particular and specific laws is in line with other moments where the forefathers are said to have learned laws.
There was no time before creation. There was eternity. How exactly do you place a non existent measure onto it? Saying "2000 years before creation" is bogus, as there was no concept of "year" Or any other measure of time.
What exactly do you mean by "gentiles _____......"? Are we playing one knowledge for gentiles and the other one for the chosen ones?
The idea of "years" in a "365 revolutions while rotating the sun" is clearly not meant. The Torah and its commentary is often written in a language that man can relate to even though it is attempting to convey an idea which transcends human understanding. The talmudic and medrashic statement (the other of which talks about "generations" before creation, which, if one were reading literally, would be impossible as, with a lack of people, it would be tough to have a generation of anything) is not trying to establish a specific timeline, but present the underlying idea that the Torah was extant in God's mind well before God chose to create the world as we know it.
As for the word "gentile", it comes up in that link because it is one of the tags the author of the question chose. he did so because he was dealing with the applicability of "Jewish" law on people who lived at a time before Judaism, and were, therefore, non-Jews, or "gentiles."
your focus is on fighting and debate and arguing and one-upmanship [=the technique or practice of gaining a feeling of superiority over another person], which i have no interest in. i have no desire to impress you or convince you of anything, either, that has no value to me at all.
my point is that since Genesis is an elegant construct and makes perfect sense, if a person has "problems" with parts of it, then it is due to the person's flawed or limited knowledge, information, intellect, understanding.
if you want to learn more then go study, nobody can do it for you.
the more attached a person is to winning arguments, the less they learn and grow and advance.
A personal, an excuse for not addressing my post properly, an avoidance of the points I put, a suggestion that I find your arguments for you and a personal. You will have to do better than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
There are a variety of spots in the book of Genesis in which the forefathers act in a way which seems either in accordance with or contrary to biblical/Mosaic rules. The sages who exegetically derived that the forefathers learned the laws destined to be given at Sinai analyze these cases and explain how they might or might not have been bound by those laws. So the idea that Noah was taught particular and specific laws is in line with other moments where the forefathers are said to have learned laws.
It also makes sense that it was written by people who already knew the laws and had the people before the Exodus anachronistically act in accordance with them before they knew them. It also makes sense that later commentators got over the problem by arguing that this means that somehow they had been given the law before it was given. I'm inclined to go with that.
It also makes sense that it was written by people who already knew the laws and had the people before the Exodus anachronistically act in accordance with them before they knew them. It also makes sense that later commentators got over the problem by arguing that this means that somehow they had been given the law before it was given. I'm inclined to go with that.
This makes perfect sense. My position and that of the commentators involved, is one steeped in a particular faith and belief. If you don't share that belief, my position is irrational and ridiculous. I'm ok with that.
This makes perfect sense. My position and that of the commentators involved, is one steeped in a particular faith and belief. If you don't share that belief, my position is irrational and ridiculous. I'm ok with that.
I admire those who swim against the current. Even if I don't share their direction. As long as their beliefs hurt none.
This makes perfect sense. My position and that of the commentators involved, is one steeped in a particular faith and belief. If you don't share that belief, my position is irrational and ridiculous. I'm ok with that.
Thank you for a polite and reasonable response. We can -respectfully - agree to differ on that
This makes perfect sense. My position and that of the commentators involved, is one steeped in a particular faith and belief. If you don't share that belief, my position is irrational and ridiculous. I'm ok with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
I admire those who swim against the current. Even if I don't share their direction. As long as their beliefs hurt none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Thank you for a polite and reasonable response. We can -respectfully - agree to differ on that
Many scholars believe that the book of Genesis was written well after Deuteronomy and Leviticus, partially to give the Jews a history.
God's admonition to take all animals two by two, but those that were 'clean' take seven by seven seems incongruent with what Noah would have known. The dietary laws were not handed down until much later, according to the bible, so Noah could not have known about them. The only way those passages could have been put into Genesis is if that book was written after Moses got them.
So, fundamentalists, what say you?
I would say that the law has always been and it will always be and not just on this Earth. I believe there are millions of Earths and the law is on every one of them.
I would say that the law has always been and it will always be and not just on this Earth. I believe there are millions of Earths and the law is on every one of them.
And I would say that the law (if we are talking about the one given to the Israelites by Moses) was just another man-made code, particular to one people,let alone one earth. If there are other earths, they may well have their own codes, if they have life at all.
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