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Katzpur will correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, the LDS church isn't pivoting at all; it's just that significant numbers of Mormons are way ahead of the church on this. And significant numbers aren't. I would predict it is largely age-related, with younger people pushing for change and older people pushing for the status quo.
You got it 100% right. Probably, where the Church as a whole is concerned, it is the younger members who are pushing for change. However, there is an ever-increasing number of parents of LGBT youth who also get it. There is a group of mothers of LGBT youth who call themselves the Mama Dragons, and who are also standing up for their kids in the fact of a lot of persecution.
There's a link to his speech in the Orlando thread and I read it yesterday. I was impressed. He comes across as thoughtful, honest and truly contrite. I hope it sends a positive ripple to less enlightened believers.
But I also understand and share jj's anger and reluctance to accept platitudes in place of action. I too think it's time to go on the offensive and start targeting those boorish Christian bigots cheering on the fact the world has 49 fewer gays.
Fundamentalism must be eradicated.
jjrose is assuming that he's all rhetoric. "Platitudes in place of action." She isn't even attempting to give him the benefit of the doubt. And that's wrong, too.
Good for him. In his position, that took a lot of guts. Hopefully, he'll now walk the walk of solidarity with the lgbtq community.
Thank you! I sincerely believe he will.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
He is reacting to what God has "written in our hearts" under the guidance of the Comforter in defiance of the "precepts and doctrines of men" his church follows.
Yes, he is. And he is in a position to be able to make a difference.
He sounds like he is running for office replete with a joke stereotype about his manner of dress. This was a stump speech. Sounds like he is up for re-election.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It's pandering. No different than what any other politician does routinely on any other issue. This guy sees the way the political winds are blowing and he's hoping to go along with the flow.
If this was a stump speech, and if he's pandering, he just ruined his political future. For every LGBT vote the speech may have gotten him, he probably lost ten votes from the straight population of Utah. You obviously don't understand the political climate in my state.
I watched it and didn't see anything so earth shattering. Maybe it seems different to you Katz because you are a Mormon. He gave a speech talking about how we need to love one one another. Meanwhile, he belongs to a church that openly discriminates against the LBTG community. What he didn't say anything about was how that needs to change. Had he tried to apologize on behalf of the Mormon church (even if he doesn't have the authority to) that would have been impressive.
No, it wouldn't have been impressive. It would have been stupid and meaningless for him to apologize on behalf of the church when he isn't in any more of a position to do so than any I am. You can't do something "on behalf of" a group you do not officially represent, as much as you might want to. Besides, straight Utahns of other religious persuasions are just as much to blame as are Mormons. This is not just a Mormon phenomenon. I believe the people who attended his speech appreciated his words and could tell that he had experienced a sincere change of heart. My favorite part of his speech was where he said, "And so may we leave today, with a resolve to be a little kinder. May we try to listen more and talk less. May we forgive someone that has wronged us. And perhaps, most importantly, try to love someone that is different than us. For my straight friends, might I suggest starting with someone who is gay."
Just two weeks ago, I marched for the fourth straight year in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade with hundreds of other Mormons in a group called "Mormons Building Bridges." As I hugged and high-fived too many people along the parade route to even begin to count, and was the recipient of their emotional sentiments of "Thank you! Thank you so much!", I know that it is individual people who can make a difference. They can make a far greater difference than churches can, when it gets right down to it.
No, it wouldn't have been impressive. It would have been stupid and meaningless for him to apologize on behalf of the church when he isn't in any more of a position to do so than any I am. You can't do something "on behalf of" a group you do not officially represent, as much as you might want to. Besides, straight Utahns of other religious persuasions are just as much to blame as are Mormons. This is not just a Mormon phenomenon. I believe the people who attended his speech appreciated his words and could tell that he had experienced a sincere change of heart. My favorite part of his speech was where he said, "And so may we leave today, with a resolve to be a little kinder. May we try to listen more and talk less. May we forgive someone that has wronged us. And perhaps, most importantly, try to love someone that is different than us. For my straight friends, might I suggest starting with someone who is gay."
Just two weeks ago, I marched for the fourth straight year in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade with hundreds of other Mormons in a group called "Mormons Building Bridges." As I hugged and high-fived too many people along the parade route to even begin to count, and was the recipient of their emotional sentiments of "Thank you! Thank you so much!", I know that it is individual people who can make a difference. They can make a far greater difference than churches can, when it gets right down to it.
Ok maybe not apologize then but point out how the discrimination needs to be addressed. He still belongs to an organization that openly discriminates. I don't think it would have been meaningless to call the church out. Seeing a leader do it may have given other people courage to do so too. It just feels like more of the love the sinner, hate the sin.
My perspective is perspective is probably different than yours though. For starters I live in Minnesota (liberal lakes) and in my friend group:two people have gay children, one woman's best friend is a gay man, and another friend has at least a dozen gay friends. To me the LGBT community are not the LGBT, they are simply people. If he had given that speech up here it would have been more like "What's your point? How are these people different than me in the first place?"
Ok maybe not apologize then but point out how the discrimination needs to be addressed. He still belongs to an organization that openly discriminates. I don't think it would have been meaningless to call the church out. Seeing a leader do it may have given other people courage to do so too. It just feels like more of the love the sinner, hate the sin.
Sorry, but I still disagree. This was neither the time nor the place to direct comments towards any one denomination.
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My perspective is perspective is probably different than yours though. For starters I live in Minnesota (liberal lakes) and in my friend group:two people have gay children, one woman's best friend is a gay man, and another friend has at least a dozen gay friends. To me the LGBT community are not the LGBT, they are simply people.
Yes, they are "simply people." But when they are gunned down not for being "simply people" but "LGBT people," that becomes an issue.
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If he had given that speech up here it would have been more like "What's your point? How are these people different than me in the first place?"
Maybe. But we all know why the people who were killed were killed, and we all know that it's because they were "different." To deny that is to pretend that the problem really doesn't exist and that it was nothing more than a mere coincidence that the massacre took place in a gay bar specifically. As long as acts of violence are being perpetrated against any minority, "That's the point!"
I watched it and didn't see anything so earth shattering. Maybe it seems different to you Katz because you are a Mormon. He gave a speech talking about how we need to love one one another. Meanwhile, he belongs to a church that openly discriminates against the LBTG community. What he didn't say anything about was how that needs to change. Had he tried to apologize on behalf of the Mormon church (even if he doesn't have the authority to) that would have been impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
No, it wouldn't have been impressive. It would have been stupid and meaningless for him to apologize on behalf of the church when he isn't in any more of a position to do so than any I am. You can't do something "on behalf of" a group you do not officially represent, as much as you might want to. Besides, straight Utahns of other religious persuasions are just as much to blame as are Mormons. This is not just a Mormon phenomenon. I believe the people who attended his speech appreciated his words and could tell that he had experienced a sincere change of heart. My favorite part of his speech was where he said, "And so may we leave today, with a resolve to be a little kinder. May we try to listen more and talk less. May we forgive someone that has wronged us. And perhaps, most importantly, try to love someone that is different than us. For my straight friends, might I suggest starting with someone who is gay."
I'm wholeheartedly with you on this, Katzpur. I DID watch the clip and I believe the Lt. Governor's words to have been most sincere and, in fact, very touching. I'm rather surprised at the rather negative responses from some people on the thread even though they're no doubt sincere. Seems to some that one is damned if they do and damned if they don't. As you say, this person can only do what he can do and this apology is at least a first step.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Just two weeks ago, I marched for the fourth straight year in Salt Lake City's Pride Parade with hundreds of other Mormons in a group called "Mormons Building Bridges." As I hugged and high-fived too many people along the parade route to even begin to count, and was the recipient of their emotional sentiments of "Thank you! Thank you so much!", I know that it is individual people who can make a difference. They can make a far greater difference than churches can, when it gets right down to it.
Good for you and the hundreds of other Mormons, Katzpur.
Last edited by mensaguy; 06-18-2016 at 04:34 AM..
Reason: added closing quote tag
You hate even your straight allies, don't you, jjrose? I DO support you and those like you and I am NOT the enemy. You just think I am because I am a Christian, and that's just as bigoted a position to take as the position many Christians take against the LGBT population. And the Lt. Governor appears to me to have had a genuine change of heart. I sincerely believe that he is in a position to make a difference and I strongly suspect he will do whatever it is in his power to do in the future. You are judging him, me, and "people like us" without provocation. I'm curious... did you even bother to watch the video? If you didn't, you don't have much room to criticize him. If you did, what could he have done differently? Is there anything at all he could have said that would have elicited a more gentle response from you, or are you just determined to reject the sincere hand of friendship from "people like him and me," regardless of what we may say or do?
If you think that I hate all Christians, or allies then you have never read any of my posts. But this man has not shown himself to be one of my allies, he has spoken words. Words mean nothing unless the are followed up with actions. Politicians like to say one thing and do another, sorry, but I will believe it when I see what he actually does.
From what I have seen of you from your posts you are a true ally, and not just paying lip service.
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