Bible God's morality changes over time (churches, marriages, Biblical, Christians)
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2 Sam 12: 7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms..."
Read on. V. 8 is kind of a "IF you have listened...." statement. V. 11 states “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight."
The point is that God DIDN'T give them to him. God KNEW he would sin. It never got to that point. God never intended for David to happily be married to multiple wives. It was never his plan. He allowed David to do it, but it wasn't his idea.
Read on. V. 8 is kind of a "IF you have listened...." statement. V. 11 states “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight."
The point is that God DIDN'T give them to him. God KNEW he would sin. It never got to that point. God never intended for David to happily be married to multiple wives. It was never his plan. He allowed David to do it, but it wasn't his idea.
It was God's plan to GIVE David wives. God carried through on that plan and GAVE David wives. God would have GIVEN David MORE wives if David had wished it. And God only took some of the wives away that God had already GIVEN to David, because David decided to procure for himself someone else's wife through means of which God did not approve.
The argument then goes on and on about where your secular morality is coming from.
Where does everything else come from since that Omni dude is not real? Since there is a significant proportion of us that don't see anything that suggest a need to come up with a conclusion that has Omni-dude, we must answer that simple question.
Where did we come from if Omni-dude is not real. well, thats where morals came from too.
It was God's plan to GIVE David wives. God carried through on that plan and GAVE David wives. God would have GIVEN David MORE wives if David had wished it. And God only took some of the wives away that God had already GIVEN to David, because David decided to procure for himself someone else's wife through means of which God did not approve.
Actually...no. As I told you, the passage was that God WOULD HAVE given them if David had not sinned. But he didn't.
It was God's plan to GIVE David wives. God carried through on that plan and GAVE David wives. God would have GIVEN David MORE wives if David had wished it. And God only took some of the wives away that God had already GIVEN to David, because David decided to procure for himself someone else's wife through means of which God did not approve.
That was a neat response of Vizio's and your response was even neater. I am out of my depth here, so I'll watch your sparring with awe.
He never told David to take multiple wives. He allowed it. He did not give them to him.
2 Samuel 12:8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
2 Samuel 12:8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.
Are you calling god a liar?
I'd suggest you actually read the passage in context -- including the next 5-6 verses. You will see that it confirms what I'm saying.
The point is that God said "IF...then..."...but the "IF" never happened. God knew it would never happen, and God knew all along.
Got a real argument? Or are you just going to camp on this one for awhile and insist that you're right when you're not? Eventually when I stop responding because are not bringing anything new to the argument, you'll declare victory?
Actually...no. As I told you, the passage was that God WOULD HAVE given them if David had not sinned. But he didn't.
God knew what was going to happen all along.
Really? You're going to make me post the entire passage for you?
David had had Uriah killed because he wanted Uriah's wife for himself. God sends Nathan to David to chastise him and give him a message. Nathan goes about it in a tricky way:
12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”
Nathan then reveals to David that he has passed judgment on himself, unwittingly:
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!
Now read this next bit carefully, Viz. Nathan continues with God's message to David:
This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’
God says, in effect: YOU MORON. I already GAVE you Saul's WIVES for yourself. You've got them. And I would have GIVEN YOU MORE WIVES if you had told me you wanted them. Instead, you arrange for some poor ****** to be killed in battle so you can have his wife.
Then Nathan pronounces David's judgment for having had Uriah killed:
11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
That judgment was apparently fulfilled when his own son, Absalom, took some of David's concubines (wives) and slept with them.
The end.
God didn't just intend to give David multiple wives. God DID give David multiple wives, and then apparently had his own son have sex with (rape?) some of them in public as punishment to David.
Really? You're going to make me post the entire passage for you?
David had had Uriah killed because he wanted Uriah's wife for himself. God sends Nathan to David to chastise him and give him a message. Nathan goes about it in a tricky way:
12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”
Nathan then reveals to David that he has passed judgment on himself, unwittingly:
7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!
Now read this next bit carefully, Viz. Nathan continues with God's message to David:
This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’
God says, in effect: YOU MORON. I already GAVE you Saul's WIVES for yourself. You've got them. And I would have GIVEN YOU MORE WIVES if you had told me you wanted them. Instead, you arrange for some poor ****** to be killed in battle so you can have his wife.
Then Nathan pronounces David's judgment for having had Uriah killed:
11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
That judgment was apparently fulfilled when his own son, Absalom, took some of David's concubines (wives) and slept with them.
The end.
God didn't just intend to give David multiple wives. God DID give David multiple wives, and then apparently had his own son have sex with (rape?) some of them in public as punishment to David.
Nice, God.
Yes--God judged him. He WOULD have given them to David....and David would lived happily ever after. But no--David messed it up.
I fail to see your point.
I'm waiting for someone to post a response saying "Davie....you're going to be King...and you'll have a lot of wives, because I consider that a good thing!" But that doesn't exist, does it?
I'd suggest you actually read the passage in context -- including the next 5-6 verses. You will see that it confirms what I'm saying.
The point is that God said "IF...then..."...but the "IF" never happened. God knew it would never happen, and God knew all along.
Got a real argument? Or are you just going to camp on this one for awhile and insist that you're right when you're not? Eventually when I stop responding because are not bringing anything new to the argument, you'll declare victory?
Since when does "I GAVE" mean "I would have given"?
And in verse 11 god says that he will take back the wives and give them to someone else. So he is saying that he will GIVE multiple wives a SECOND time. There is no "IF" involved. It specifically states "I GAVE" past tense.
So basically god GAVE the wives to David, David was a bad boy, so god threatened to take the wives and give them to someone else.
Sounds like sanctioning to me.
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