Bible God's morality changes over time (hell, myth, beliefs, belief)
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Since when does "I GAVE" mean "I would have given"?
And in verse 11 god says that he will take back the wives and give them to someone else. So he is saying that he will GIVE multiple wives a SECOND time. There is no "IF" involved. It specifically states "I GAVE" past tense.
So basically god GAVE the wives to David, David was a bad boy, so god threatened to take the wives and give them to someone else.
Sounds like sanctioning to me.
I'd suggest that you go back and read my previous response. Nothing has changed. I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you.
Unless you have a concrete verse saying that God approved of it...this is over.
Yes--God judged him. He WOULD have given them to David....and David would lived happily ever after. But no--David messed it up.
I fail to see your point.
I'm waiting for someone to post a response saying "Davie....you're going to be King...and you'll have a lot of wives, because I consider that a good thing!" But that doesn't exist, does it?
No, he said that he "would have given him MORE" that means that he already GAVE him some. God said "hey Davie, I made you king, and gave you houses and wives but you screwed it all up so I'm taking it all back and giving them to someone else."
The argument then goes on and on about where your secular morality is coming from.
I don't think any theists have seriously questioned where it's obviously coming from: it's coming from society -- from us. The thing theists question is its authoritative basis. But this comes from an authoritarian mindset that sees morality as either obeying or disobeying an authoritarian's commands, rather than a consensus-based phenomenon based on actual benefits and harms. Societal morality can of course be enforced by authorities within society but that is for dealing with people who elect to oppose current societal norms and doesn't serve as a source of legitimacy for the mores themselves. Indeed, it is sometimes activists and protesters who brings about changes in old mores.
Societal morality simply has to work. What "work" looks like is this: society is better off, more civil, more just, more egalitarian, more enduring. So rather than might-makes-right authority coming from a strong man, the power of actual morality comes from sustainably promoting the kind of civil society that most of society's members wish to live in. It is not imposed rules, but chosen rules that demonstrably make society better aligned with what its members want for themselves and are willing to be responsible for.
The other major difference is that imposed authoritarian systems of morality can't evolve to adapt to changing circumstances, better information or improved understanding, particularly when the authority is supposed to be infallible to begin with; a change in the rules is seen as an admission of fallibility and/or capriciousness. We have a more evolved understanding of human rights than we did 200 years ago so we have eliminated slavery and indentured servitude and given women the vote, and removed arbitrary gender-based exceptions concerning who is allowed the benefits of marriage contracts, etc. God did not have this understanding apparently so actually gave instructions concerning how to be a "good" slave owner, how women are not to be involved in governing churches, etc.
God also for example used to be incensed (so his followers claimed) when women's ankles started showing, then their knees, and now apparently he's good so long as you don't see their tidy-whities or actual bottoms peeking out. If acceptable skirt lengths had been based on a Bible verse, this would have been a huge problem, but because it was a derived teaching based on cultural expectations it has been able to change from generation to generation (always a discrete generation or so behind the rest of society though). Society has simply adapted; Christian subculture has adapted a bit more slowly and always claiming every step of the way that the current norms are endorsed by god on pain of punishment. So we have the spectacle today of Christian women flouncing around in outfits that would have gotten them accused of harlotry just 2 or 3 generations ago.
The point of all this being, that the only morality anyone actually has ever had is societal morality. Religion just comes along, claims to have invented it, and to be its protector and arbiter. And the proof that this is a charade on the part of religion is that if religious morality ever got very out of step with societal morality, it would be ... er, immoral, and the members of that religion would be sanctioned accordingly. That's why Viz and others here have had to admit that despite apparently believing homosexuals are abominations to god who should be stoned, they aren't going to be stoned nevertheless. Because people who usurp the legal system and undertake stonings, get life sentences for first degree murder. And people who treat gays to hate speech and discrimination are also penalized.
You have to give outfits like Westboro credit -- at least they believe in the imagined supremacy of Biblical morality enough to be arrested for it.
No, he said that he "would have given him MORE" that means that he already GAVE him some. God said "hey Davie, I made you king, and gave you houses and wives but you screwed it all up so I'm taking it all back and giving them to someone else."
In any event...so what? EVEN if God DID allow polygamous marriages for awhile...so what?
No, he said that he "would have given him MORE" that means that he already GAVE him some. God said "hey Davie, I made you king, and gave you houses and wives but you screwed it all up so I'm taking it all back and giving them to someone else."
Actually, God didn't take them back. He arranged for David's son to have sex with (rape, I assume) David's multiple wives (THE ONES GOD GAVE HIM) in public to humiliate David.
Actually, God didn't take them back. He arranged for David's son to have sex with (rape, I assume) David's multiple wives (THE ONES GOD GAVE HIM) in public to humiliate David.
In the same way, God arranged for other nations to judge Israel for their sin. Yet, God never once said that such things were GOOD or that they were MORAL.
In any event...so what? EVEN if God DID allow polygamous marriages for awhile...so what?
Not just allowed: sanctioned, condoned.
And this is so what:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan2008
As an atheist, it is clear to me that Bible God's morality is like human's morality. It changes over time and it is situation-specific. Any Christians want to dispute this?? We can start off with polygamy sanctioned by God at one time.
In the same way, God arranged for other nations to judge Israel for their sin. Yet, God never once said that such things were GOOD or that they were MORAL.
You are the one who started this argument by saying that God did not GIVE David multiple wives. God DID. ( Are you now acknowledging that you were mistaken?)
So, are you now saying that God gave David wives as a punishment, when the passage very clearly indicates that God intended it as a GIFT, something POSITIVE, and something God would happily have done MORE of IF David had not had Uriah killed?
And simply stating that God condoned or allowed something is different than God declaring something to be moral or good.
God GAVE David multiple wives. Are you saying God did something immoral and bad?
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