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Religion does much good, but it's not newsworthy. While Westboro BC is yelling, "God hates ****!", millions of Christians are sharing redemption in Christ, feeding and clothing the poor, and building hospitals.
Qualiasoup (of the excellent videos on logic) argues that a someone who does a criminal act is not excused because he gave to charity. I say: "You cannot buy the truth with free soup".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Every church I've been a part of does. That's the primary message of Christianity.
The primary message I get is 'Believe what we tell you and don't ask awkward questions', often with some kind of divine Threat to back it up. For me, they can keep their handouts - it isn't buying them a thing.
Qualiasoup (of the excellent videos on logic) argues that a someone who does a criminal act is not excused because he gave to charity. I say: "You cannot buy the truth with free soup".
The primary message I get is 'Believe what we tell you and don't ask awkward questions', often with some kind of divine Threat to back it up. For me, they can keep their handouts - it isn't buying them a thing.
It's not the same group doing both!
Your experience is not mine. I see hundreds of people every year changing their life for the better, when they encounter the love and forgiveness of God.
It's not the same group doing both!
Your experience is not mine. I see hundreds of people every year changing their life for the better, when they encounter the love and forgiveness of God.
That should be a strong clue to you, jimmie, about what it is really about - agape love, NOT whatever "precepts and doctrines of men" you THINK you must believe. God reaches us through love and our heart, not through the ancient ignorance in the precepts of men.
That should be a strong clue to you, jimmie, about what it is really about - agape love, NOT whatever "precepts and doctrines of men" you THINK you must believe. God reaches us through love and our heart, not through the ancient ignorance in the precepts of men.
I've never thought otherwise. The scriptures are simply the written version of God's word.
I think the article cited in the OP asks the question well: Religion: cause or excuse? It is both, at times, and occasionally, neither. Religious faith does not tend to lead toward truth ... but a lot of things don't. Romantic ideals. Jingoism. Racism. Xenophobia. White supremacy.
It's not really possible to lay most specific wars, or other mischief, exclusively at the feet of religion. Religion CAN be a primary cause of conflict, and/or be used as an excuse for conflict, or it can broker peace or provide rationales for ethical behavior. I don't happen to think it's the best framework for those latter positive things and is unreliable at best in delivering on its promised benefits, and historically has often enough gone off the rails and caused great harm. I am one who thinks the world would ultimately be better off getting away from religious faith, at least when it has matured enough not to need it as a crutch. But the causes of conflict are too interrelated and complex to think that religion by itself is its sole cause or even a necessary ingredient.
I've never attributed wars to religion. I think their are far too many complexities to war to simply peg the blame on one thing. Even WWI, which was largely just the egos of elites, can't simply be blamed on "rich people."
However, religion is often used to rally unjust support for wars. Look at ISIS. While we could argue back and forth on if the Koran is good or evil (I don't think it matters, personally), no one can argue, even the most aggressive of Muslim apologists, that there are things in the Koran that are beyond disgusting, no different than the Bible. Groups like ISIS capitalize on the idea that if a single part of the Koran isn't true, then the whole thing must be wrong, and to believe that makes you a sinner, so go bomb that school bus. Same logic used to get people to deny evolution (and I call it logic as that's just an easy word to understand; nothing about it is logical).
But I don't think that getting rid of religion would cause fewer wars. If religion were less dogmatic, there would be one less thing to get people to agree to ****ty wars.
It is obvious WW II started by Hitler was driven by his particular ideology, i.e. Nazism.
There are wars that were started by Muslim majority Nations/groups but not all are driven by the religion of Islam, e.g. Iraq invasion of Kuwait. The separatists groups in Southern Philippines and Southern Thailand used Islam to gather support for their political cause.
But there are obviously wars that are driven directly by the religion of Islam and those wars have been going on since Islam emerged as an imperialistic religion that conquered lands from Spain to India.
At present there are wars that are driven by the specific doctrines of Islam, e.g. those of the Talibans, ISIS, Boko Haram, and other Islamic terrorist groups.
It is not only physical wars but all Muslims are obliged to fight all sorts of battles [mental, legal, ideas, etc.] to ensure Islam prevails and dominate all of mankind. Sounds ridiculous but most Muslims take it serious enough to create lots of havoc.
In fact it was the US who knudged the Talibans to take back Islamic lands occupied by the Russian infidels by invoking verses from the Quran and Ahadith. Eventually the Americans had those same doctrines turned on them by the Talibans.
The Muslims of ISIS are motivated to form the Caliphate as a religious duty.
I have read the Quran very extensively and deeply thus I am well aware of the duty of a Muslim to sacrifice their life for the cause of Allah in the event of threats to Islam, their lands and Muslims by the infidels. Those who are martyred are well rewarded that the 'coward' Muslims.
Most of the 'moderate' Muslims do not take this call to fight seriously. However the fact is there is a small % [but of significant numbers, 20% =300 million] of evil prone Muslims who will be influenced and inspired to fight for the cause of Allah with the hope of going to Paradise expeditiously and gain greater rewards than the normal course.
Despite the crusades and other evils in history, I don't see Christianity as problematic because these wars and evils were not driven by the doctrines of Jesus which is overridden by a pacifist maxim like 'love your enemies' and the likes.
Islam is different, Islam has a no-hold-barred passport to fight and kill non-Muslims upon certain conditions. The problem is these conditions are very vague and this is why there are so many wars, terrible evils and violence being committed by SOME evil prone Muslims upon the slightest perceived threat, even drawing of cartoons.
Note:
I have all the relevant verses from the Quran to support the point mentioned above but omitted them in this post.
Your experience is not mine. I see hundreds of people every year changing their life for the better, when they encounter the love and forgiveness of God.
My experience is not yours. I see many people (no hundreds, but then atheism is not a church) every time they they experience the freedom and clarity of deconversion almost overnight changing from an irrational blinkered believer in the unbelievable to a reasonable, rational person who follows the evidence where it leads rather than dragging it where they want it to go. And that is worth all the free soup in te world.
However, that isn't the point. The harmless deluded are not perhaps those who work hard to get a crusade going against hose who are spoiling for a holy war on the other side. So you are defending those we are not attacking. Nevetheless, I am uncomfortable aware that even the ones who wouldn't for a moment dream of denying Muslims the right to build mosques, let alone saying that atheist should not be considered as US citizens, might, when election time comes around, be tempted to vote for those who did.
My experience is not yours. I see many people (no hundreds, but then atheism is not a church) every time they they experience the freedom and clarity of deconversion almost overnight changing from an irrational blinkered believer in the unbelievable to a reasonable, rational person who follows the evidence where it leads rather than dragging it where they want it to go. And that is worth all the free soup in te world.
However, that isn't the point. The harmless deluded are not perhaps those who work hard to get a crusade going against hose who are spoiling for a holy war on the other side. So you are defending those we are not attacking. Nevetheless, I am uncomfortable aware that even the ones who wouldn't for a moment dream of denying Muslims the right to build mosques, let alone saying that atheist should not be considered as US citizens, might, when election time comes around, be tempted to vote for those who did.
Well, if the Muslims would quit blowing us up and the atheists would quit taking God out of our society, perhaps things would be more calm.
We are in the 21st century, and still there are many who believe fables from 2100 years ago. Crazy, but that is the way it is.
You don't want to live in a world with me and no religion.
Reminds me of that John Travolta film about scientology and all they believed in was money, but without religion, we would not be where we are today, I seriously doubt we would have ever had a technology era of growth, we would still be throwing stones at rabbits.
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It's not the same group doing both!
