Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm not surprised that you would hide from an opposing view over YOUR desire to be "right".
But then...ur the guy that says slavery was not discriminatory until it was deemed illegal. As if...one would be taking an "I am God" attitude, and "insisting on being right" by making a self-determination based upon reason and fairness that it was discriminatory regardless of whether "The Law" sanctioned it or not.
I'm in no "Dream world"....I deal in reality, and a pragmatic fact-on-the-ground assessment of things.
I do not need "The Law" to tell me that an act like enslaving others is discrimination against them...that "Lawyers" and "The Law" at some time, in some jurisdiction, may be so evil to legally allow it, notwithstanding.
You might need "Lawyers" and the "The Law" to hip you to what is discriminatory, but most don't...nor do I.
You are right...in that the law does not decide what is ethical - human morality does, but wrong in that it somehow makes the law invalid.
You are right in that slavery was deemed to be wrong before the law agreed it was, but wrong in supposing that you don't need the law to rell you it is wrong.
It's a subtle point, but its why we write things down to tell us what what we know - or thought we knew, but were wrong about.
You are right...in that the law does not decide what is ethical - human morality does, but wrong in that it somehow makes the law invalid.
You are right in that slavery was deemed to be wrong before the law agreed it was, but wrong in supposing that you don't need the law to rell you it is wrong.
It's a subtle point, but its why we write things down to tell us what what we know - or thought we knew, but were wrong about.
I certainly understand that "The Law" can be used as a means to deter or punish undesirable behavior like discrimination...and emphasize the negative aspect of it.
But to ever say that undesirable conduct and acts like discrimination (or, I guess things like rape, domestic assault, slaveholding, etc, as well) are not "real" until Lawyers and Lawmakers deem them to be criminal, is not logical or reasonable. It is what it is...exclusive of the legality.
I did my best to explain...to no avial. Oh, well.
I also feel the dating site wasn't discriminating by not providing a particular type of product/service that some wish they did.
you know how the Talmud interprets the verse "you should love to your neighbor as yourself" as applied to homosexuals?
when the COURT executes them for homosexual behavior you should give them a nice death.
anything Jesus says regarding this verse and homosexuals is coming in this context. in the Jewish world he was trying to convert this was the prevailing view at the time!
PS: not that care what he said or thought about anything, however if he sided with the liberal view of things you would think he would have preached against the only society at the time that had a death penalty for homosexual behavior!
You are an orthodox, fundamentalist Jew. It has been my contention on these threads for over three years that ALL fundamentalists are exactly the same in outlook on people who don't fit their interpretation of the holy book.
But there are Jews who have grown in their morality also. My son is the only American working in an office full of Israelis (it's an Israeli company). There are a couple score there. He tells me not one thinks negatively of gay people.
Then again, a couple of them ate smoked PORK that he took to work--knowing most wouldn't eat it--but some did!
The Sanhedrin is nonexistent under halakha. Reconstructionist Judaism and Reform Judaism do not hold your view and allow same sex marriage. Even Conservative Judaism has issued multiple positions over the past ten years.
So people of the Jewish faith also have the ability to grow their morality. But like all book religions, there remain fundamentalists who wish to oppress people every chance they get. This while all the time proclaiming it to be wrong to oppress Jews.
Some people are stuck in their holy books. Others know God still speaks--and it isn't always in a book.
The folks that wore these uniforms were every bit as fully "Jewish" as you.
The pink triangle of a gay Jew during the Holocaust.
The four Bible scholars and teachers quoted below have each come to a slightly different conclusion about whether homosexuality is actually prohibited in the text and time period of the Torah.
* Rabbi Jacob Milgrom says that, YES, the Bible prohibits homosexual behavior. However, only in the land of Israel and only for males, and, possibly, only in certain interfamily relationships.
* Rabbi Gershon Steinberg-Caudill believes that the so-called "homosexual" act in the Bible that is prohibited is actually an act of HETEROSEXUAL SUBSTITUTION of a male in place of a female by a heterosexual male, and, possibly, may even need to be done in an idolatrous worship scenario.
Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill posits that even if Moses taught that God did command against homosexuality in the Torah (which Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill does not believe that God did), that command, like other commandments that Moses claimed as God given Torah commands, such as the command to kill the "stubborn and rebellious" son (Deuteronomy 21: 18-21), the rabbis negated totally a century after the beginning of the Christian era. The Talmudic rabbis declared that God did not say such a command through Moses. Similarly, any vestige of a supposed Torah prohibition against homosexuality also would need to be negated for this new day and age.
Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill believes that the Hebrew word that orginally (sic) conveyed the concept of what we today refer to as "homosexual" is the word סריס (saris), commonly translated "eunuch."
-------
Rabbi Gershon Winkler states in his article (found in the middle of the page) his belief that the only "homosexual" act that is prohibited by the Torah is anal sex, and that female homosexuality; lesbianism, is permitted by the Torah.
---------
DOES THE BIBLE PROHIBIT HOMOSEXUALITY, by Rabbi Jacob Milgrom, Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at the University of California, Berkeley (writes):
Of course it does (Leviticus) 18: 22; 20: 13), but the prohibition is severely limited. First, it is addressed only to Israel, not to other nations. Second, compliance with this law is a condition for residing in the Holy Land, but is irrelevant outside it (see the closing exhortation, 18: 24-30). Third, it is limited to men; lesbianism is not prohibited. Thus it is incorrect to apply this prohibition on a universal scale.
Moreover, as pointed out by my erstwhile student, Dr. David Stewart, both occurrences of the prohibition (18: 22; 20: 13) contain the phrase "as one lies with a woman" (lit. "lyings a woman"), an idiom used only for illicit heterosexual unions. Thus one could argue that carnal relations are forbidden only if their correlated heterosexual unions would be in these lists.
So your thoughts are not out of line with other fundamentalists. In fact both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are your allies. As far as many of us are concerned--you are all peas from the same pod and your fundie religions are exactly the same. You look, behave, and speak in a manner befitting all the ills that religion is capable of bringing upon mankind. At heart, you are no more than a Muslim or a Christian fundamentalist wrapped up in different religious packaging.
So please enlighten everyone more clearly when you state "this is what Jews believe." Not all are sunk in the mud of superiority over others.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-09-2016 at 12:17 AM..
I certainly understand that "The Law" can be used as a means to deter or punish undesirable behavior like discrimination...and emphasize the negative aspect of it.
But to ever say that undesirable conduct and acts like discrimination (or, I guess things like rape, domestic assault, slaveholding, etc, as well) are not "real" until Lawyers and Lawmakers deem them to be criminal, is not logical or reasonable. It is what it is...exclusive of the legality.
I did my best to explain...to no avial. Oh, well.
I also feel the dating site wasn't discriminating by not providing a particular type of product/service that some wish they did.
You needn't try to explain an idea that you don't believe, and neither do we, and exists only in your own head.
Since morality is a human convention, it isn't "Real". Don't fall into the Atheist Blogger fallacy of thinking of Morality as an existing entity, or you might come to think (as the now Catholic blogger did) that "God" is something more than a rather waggish Dictionary epithet for "Nature". It is "Real" in that there is plenty of evidence that slaves don't like to be slaves (Reciprocity and ...old mate, the "Golden Rule" ).
The Law follows the circus with buckets and shovels, trying to clean the place up. Lawmakers are supported by government, using police methods that sometimes (See "The savage curtain") uses methods that look the same as the lawbreakers, to try to ensure that people observe the laws, whether they like them or not. Ten years in Jail for fraud is as Real as it gets.
I won't get into human morality finding that the law itself can be immoral and public opinion forces it to change. But when we argue about gay discrimination, it isn't on a legal basis but on a moral basis. If on any valid basis (The Bible isn't) at all. If the Law concurs with us, we celebrate and if it doesn't, we sulk. If the Law had decided that a Christian dating -site could legally decline to serve same sex couples, that wouldn't have been a disaster (apart from the Jeffs of this world acting like Dawkins had been personally immolated at the stake for blasphemy) since the Gays etc. could (as I think you said) use sites that did and (hopefully) the ones that didn't would go out of business through lack of custom.
That the Law continues to Find in favour of slapping down discrimination against gays, wherever it is brought (through due process) to their attention (and we all know where you can find it) continues to be a matter of quiet celebration amongst the Darwinist minions of perdition who post here. And a sigh of regret from yourself. Which I have to admit, goes rather well with my coffee and toast .
P.s thanks to the theist (whoever) whor epped me and gave me a modified thumbs -up. If I find out who you are, I have (in accordance with prosperity gospel theology) a couple of reps for you.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-09-2016 at 02:16 AM..
You are an orthodox, fundamentalist Jew. It has been my contention on these threads for over three years that ALL fundamentalists are exactly the same in outlook on people who don't fit their interpretation of the holy book.
and you are a homosexual fundamentalist who has also might a atheist but has a religious fervor for evil!
Quote:
But there are Jews who have grown in their morality also.
Jews today are at their lowest point morally ever!
Quote:
My son is the only American working in an office full of Israelis (it's an Israeli company). There are a couple score there. He tells me not one thinks negatively of gay people.
anti religious Israelis have a very evil history that includes kidnapping Jewish religious children from their parents and telling their parent they died
Quote:
The Sanhedrin is nonexistent under halakha.
that is cause Jews are in exile not because the laws changed
Quote:
Reconstructionist Judaism and Reform Judaism do not hold your view and allow same sex marriage.
Christianity is much closer to Judaism them Reconstructionists, and REFORM.
Reform officially doesn't believe the Torah was given by God and Reconstructionists don't believe in God
karites are a million times closer to talmudic Judaism then either reform or Reconstructionists
Quote:
Even Conservative Judaism has issued multiple positions over the past ten years.
Conservatives stopped pretending to follow the Torah years at least since the 50's
Quote:
So people of the Jewish faith also have the ability to grow their morality.
they are Jews but do not follow the Jewish faith
Quote:
But like all book religions, there remain fundamentalists who wish to oppress people every chance they get.
the biggest fundamentalists until recent times (gay movement) were the communists who followed Marx and Lenin, and were willing to die for their religion
Quote:
This while all the time proclaiming it to be wrong to oppress Jews.
the biggest oppressor of Jews in modern times are not coming from religious people including Muslims but liberals
Quote:
Some people are stuck in their holy books. Others know God still speaks--and it isn't always in a book.
God speaks many ways today and they all say that homosexuality is wrong, One of the most interesting examples is the big gay parade in Jerusalem in 2006 had to be rescheduled because
when they announced the gay parade because the terrorists attacks and subsequent war
Quote:
The folks that wore these uniforms were every bit as fully "Jewish" as you.
The pink triangle of a gay Jew during the Holocaust.
all the founders of Christainity was also "every bit as fully "Jewish" as me" their views were wrong, however they are not even close to as wrong as Reform,
the talmud is very clear that both none jews and Jews are forbidden from sodomy and it's a crime punishable by death.
Quote:
So your thoughts are not out of line with other fundamentalists. In fact both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are your allies.
the worst antiSemites in history are Jews who rebel against Judaism
Quote:
As far as many of us are concerned--you are all peas from the same pod and your fundie religions are exactly the same. You look, behave, and speak in a manner befitting all the ills that religion is capable of bringing upon mankind. At heart, you are no more than a Muslim or a Christian fundamentalist wrapped up in different religious packaging.
more Jews were murder in the name of Christianity then other groups however, militant anti religious forces like the homosexual left, has done much more damage to the Jewish people then all of Christianity through out the past 2,000 years.
in terms of damage to jews
Christian persuasion of Jews in the name of Jesus < communist Russia's persuasion of jews in the name of progress
As far as many of us are concerned--you are all peas from the same pod and your fundie anti-religions are exactly the same. You look, behave, and speak in a manner befitting all the ills that anti-religion is capable of bringing upon mankind. At heart, you are no more than a Communist or a Nazi wrapped up in different anti-religious packaging.
Quote:
So please enlighten everyone more clearly when you state "this is what Jews believe."
1. Judaism unequivocally condemns homosexuality, (Jews may accept in but not Judaism)
2. I was only bringing up Judaism's view on homosexuality vis-a-vis Christianity's view of homosexuality.
Judaism rightfully condemned homosexual behavior and prided itself on that during Jesus's time as can be seen in both Jewish religious sources and historical sources (Josephus)
Quote:
Not all are sunk in the mud of superiority over others.
however you think your superior to me because you accept and celebrate homosexual behavior. lift yourself from the mud and take a shower
liberal hypocrisy is alive and well in your post
and you are a homosexual fundamentalist who has also might a atheist but has a religious fervor for evil!
<snip>
however you think your superior to me because you accept and celebrate homosexual behavior. lift yourself from the mud and take a shower
liberal hypocrisy is alive and well in your post
I'm a Nazi, eh
Interesting you should say that. The Nazis started on the homosexuals before they moved to Jews. They wanted to see just how far the public would swallow their lies. It worked for homosexuals so they determined it would work with Jews. That's how all these "ethnic" cleansings get started. Just this one group of homosexuals that deserve to die, right? And when you are finished with them who is next? Atheists, Gentiles? You're on the same roll that your Nazi oppressors took before they started on Jews.
Being a Jew doesn't exempt one from being a jerk. You sound like a fundamentalist Muslim or a fundamentalist Christian. In truth you all have the same god----your bigotry.
Can't rep you -yet, but 2 waiting to be slipped down the line . You (like troutdude) are the sort of Theists that I, an atheist, can do business with. This was a useful exchange as I suspect that you, like myself, actually rather like and even admire Jews. Are you listening, NYJew? And it is useful to be reminded that people are people and you can get the uncompromising and the religiously closed -minded anywhere. I was given a blasting by a Jew recently for praising the Israel philharmonic for lifting the ban on Wagner and playing it.
We never, ever forget the Holocaust, the camps and the Hitler policy of the Final solution. But there are some Jews - a very few - who play the "six million" card too often whenever they want to get the best of an argument, and toss out accusation of Anti -semitism when they don't get their own way. And it is starting to wear as thin as "Hitler was an atheist'.
Interesting you should say that. The Nazis started on the homosexuals before they moved to Jews. They wanted to see just how far the public would swallow their lies. It worked for homosexuals so they determined it would work with Jews. That's how all these "ethnic" cleansings get started. Just this one group of homosexuals that deserve to die, right? And when you are finished with them who is next? Atheists, Gentiles? You're on the same roll that your Nazi oppressors took before they started on Jews.
Being a Jew doesn't exempt one from being a jerk. You sound like a fundamentalist Muslim or a fundamentalist Christian. In truth you all have the same god----your bigotry.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You needn't try to explain an idea that you don't believe, and neither do we, and exists only in your own head. 
). 
. You (like troutdude) are the sort of Theists that I, an atheist, can do business with. This was a useful exchange as I suspect that you, like myself, actually rather like and even admire Jews. Are you listening, NYJew? And it is useful to be reminded that people are people and you can get the uncompromising and the religiously closed -minded anywhere. I was given a blasting by a Jew recently for praising the Israel philharmonic for lifting the ban on Wagner and playing it.
