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Old 03-03-2008, 01:20 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,943,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
And hence people will believe what they want to believe in regards to a god. Once we decide to start 'searching' for god, we allow ourselves to move beyond the realm of chance and circumstance and assign things to a supernatural entity. We can look for any little quirk, nuance, and chance event and say "I have been spoken to." Life, or should I say, life's events are very complex with numerous different factors influencing it. I have "quirky" things that happen in my life, but I'm not about to start writing them off to a deity because I can't explain them. I've never seen anything that has convinced me that ONLY a supernatural force could cause something.

Like I just put on another post, it's almost exactly like why people believe psychics or alien encounters are real. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Let's say you're working on a car. Let's say there's a light flickering for some reason. You're about ready to pull your hair out trying to figure out why. You feel as if you've checked every wire and made every possible examination into why this light is flickering. You have come up empty. At what point would we assign this flickering light to your car being haunted? We might jokingly do it, but we know that there's a rational, physical, and natural explanation behind it. Chances are, the light is picking up a ground (if it's ground seeking) or it's picking up power (if it's power seeking). I think if we eventually broke down and took our car to a mechanic and told him "It's haunted" the reaction would be a bit of laughter. No one consigns flickering lights on their car to a ghost. At least, no one I know does.
When you search for God and He reveals Himself to you, it does not require you to assign things to Him as if this was some task that had to be fulfilled.
God will make plain to you that it is He that is speaking. And will from time to time reveal things to you that only God Himself could know. I recall many years ago how I was just praying to God as I was returning home from working the 4 to 12 shift. Right in the middle of my prayer and without any warning God spoke to me and said "your wife is going to have a child." That's all He said, and nothing more. Yet I heard Him clearly which messed up my whole prayer, because I could not believe what I had just heard. I responded quickly and said, "Lord, my wife and I have not even thought about having another child, but thank you Lord for the child you are sending us." I then stepped up my speed a little and could not wait to get home and tell my wife what I had just heard. When I finally arrived home, I found that my wife had already gone to bed. I really wanted to wake her up, but I thought I would just tell her in the morning. I recall leaning against the door and just looking at my wife while she was sleeping and I thought to myself, "my poor wife, she is pregent and does not even know it." I then turned in for the night and tried to get some sleep myself, only to be wakened up about three hours later. It was my wife in the bathroom, she was feeling sick and was try to throw up. And yes, as we soon learned, she was pregnant. God's actions are much more direct in the lives of the people who love Him, and as Jesus tells us in the Bible, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me".
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,423,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
God's actions are much more direct in the lives of the people who love Him, and as Jesus tells us in the Bible, "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me".


Well, I'm sure to people that love him it seems like his actions are more direct because they attribute things to him that shouldn't be attributed. People will attribute anything and everything to god when they believe in one. I'm sure there are a thousand stories similar to yours in places that practice wide varieties of religions. It doesn't make any particular one of them true and it doesn't make an existence of a deity any more realistic.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Mayans believed it was going to rain after they threw enough teenagers into wells for their rain deity (Chaac). It doesn't take much to realize that we're pattern seeking creatures. It's probably not hard to figure out how that started either. It probably came about during the middle of a drought, a teenager fell down a well, and later that day it started raining. All of a sudden, everyone put the connections together. We are a pattern seeking species and we're willing to attribute natural phenomena to supernatural causes at the slightest whiff of something special.

In fact, you should read about cargo cults some time.

Listen, I know that moment in your life was special but I don't know of anything that pointed to a deity. Let me make a bold prediliction of what happened:

You had sexual intercourse with your wife a few days earlier. You knew it was an 'optimum time' in the back of your mind. After all, you probably know this person quite well having been married to her. You probably, on some level, recognized that perhaps you were ready for a kid or that you were scared that you may have gotten her pregnant. Either way, the idea was there. When you prayed, perhaps it brought it to your conscious level and you put everything together. You attribute that "thought process" to a deity. I'm not knocking you for that. It was an enlightening time in your life and I'm sure it was very special to you. I just don't see it as anything so outrageously crazy that only god could do it.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:51 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,943,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Well, I'm sure to people that love him it seems like his actions are more direct because they attribute things to him that shouldn't be attributed. People will attribute anything and everything to god when they believe in one. I'm sure there are a thousand stories similar to yours in places that practice wide varieties of religions. It doesn't make any particular one of them true and it doesn't make an existence of a deity any more realistic.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Mayans believed it was going to rain after they threw enough teenagers into wells for their rain deity (Chaac). It doesn't take much to realize that we're pattern seeking creatures. It's probably not hard to figure out how that started either. It probably came about during the middle of a drought, a teenager fell down a well, and later that day it started raining. All of a sudden, everyone put the connections together. We are a pattern seeking species and we're willing to attribute natural phenomena to supernatural causes at the slightest whiff of something special.

In fact, you should read about cargo cults some time.

Listen, I know that moment in your life was special but I don't know of anything that pointed to a deity. Let me make a bold prediliction of what happened:

You had sexual intercourse with your wife a few days earlier. You knew it was an 'optimum time' in the back of your mind. After all, you probably know this person quite well having been married to her. You probably, on some level, recognized that perhaps you were ready for a kid or that you were scared that you may have gotten her pregnant. Either way, the idea was there. When you prayed, perhaps it brought it to your conscious level and you put everything together. You attribute that "thought process" to a deity. I'm not knocking you for that. It was an enlightening time in your life and I'm sure it was very special to you. I just don't see it as anything so outrageously crazy that only god could do it.
Again as with my other post, facts are being ignored. I was in the middle of a prayer when I was interupted, and the voice spoke to me and told me my wife was going to have a child. I was not thinking at all about having a child, that was not even on my mind. And again, this is just one of many expericences I have had with God. It appears when the truth is so easy to believe, others who donot want to believe in God, will try to convince you of a lie.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,423,075 times
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Again as with my other post, facts are being ignored. I was in the middle of a prayer when I was interupted, and the voice spoke to me and told me my wife was going to have a child. I was not thinking at all about having a child, that was not even on my mind. And again, this is just one of many expericences I have had with God. It appears when the truth is so easy to believe, others who donot want to believe in God, will try to convince you of a lie.
I'm not trying to tell you it's a lie. I'm sure it's very real to you and very important to you and you are entitled to that. However, I do believe that there is a better explanation for it. That's all I'm saying. This is a place where we exchange communique over what we believe or don't believe and I think we're sticking to the theme of the original post quite nicely.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:57 AM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,943,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I'm not trying to tell you it's a lie. I'm sure it's very real to you and very important to you and you are entitled to that. However, I do believe that there is a better explanation for it. That's all I'm saying. This is a place where we exchange communique over what we believe or don't believe and I think we're sticking to the theme of the original post quite nicely.
So do you believe when Moses was speaking to the burning bush, do you think he was mistakenly speaking to a bush that caught on fire? And when the Children of Israel Crossed the Red Sea and Pharoah lost his army, did Moses and the Children of Israel just luck out? I also might mention here, that the Red Sea crossing site has been found, and divers have discovered the coral incrusted remains of Pharoahs army which includes Chariots, Chariot wheels, horses, and human bones ect. Also, they located two red garnite colums placed their by King Solomons workmen to mark the spot of the crossing.
The Jews did not fabricate the Bible, and it's stories are based on real events that did happen, and their personal involvement with the real God. The same God that spoke with me, is also the same God that spoke with Moses.
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Old 03-05-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,712 posts, read 13,423,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
So do you believe when Moses was speaking to the burning bush, do you think he was mistakenly speaking to a bush that caught on fire? And when the Children of Israel Crossed the Red Sea and Pharoah lost his army, did Moses and the Children of Israel just luck out? I also might mention here, that the Red Sea crossing site has been found, and divers have discovered the coral incrusted remains of Pharoahs army which includes Chariots, Chariot wheels, horses, and human bones ect. Also, they located two red garnite colums placed their by King Solomons workmen to mark the spot of the crossing.
The Jews did not fabricate the Bible, and it's stories are based on real events that did happen, and their personal involvement with the real God. The same God that spoke with me, is also the same God that spoke with Moses.
First of all, I do not believe Moses spoke to a burning bush. I'm skeptical of an enormous amount of things in the Bible from the Genesis creation to the artificial insemination of Mary. I do not understand why it is hard for you to understand this but I, GCSTroop, deny the presence of a deity, a savior, or the fact that the Bible is anything other than a collection of myths and stories used as a feeble and brutal explanation for why man is here.

I, GCSTroop, deny that Jesus Christ was a savior, a son of god, or anything more than a 1st century magician with an eloquent tongue. I do not understand why it is so hard for you to grasp that.

Trying to prove the Bible is the word of God with the Bible is about as circular in logic as it gets. It seems you are attempting to stoop to levels of complete absurdity to try and prove a point.

As far as the remains of the armies in the Red Sea... Do you have a link for that? I'm very curious as to what was found and what was claimed to have been found. Something tells me there is going to be a scientific fallacy involved. That's ok. I enjoy debunking them. It gives me something to do.

Let's not mince words. I do appreciate the conversation, but let's not sit here and act like we both agree the Bible has some merit to it. I deny it as the word of God and so, to me, your approach needs to be that of trying to prove fiction to be non-fiction. For that, it's going to require a lot more than someone saying "In the future a once great country will stumble."

Good, now that we're over that hurdle, let's talk science. I'd love for you to present me with empirical proof of your claim. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen. I'm saying that I'm skeptical and that it requires investigation. Up for the challenge?
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,032 posts, read 24,548,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
First of all, I do not believe Moses spoke to a burning bush. I'm skeptical of an enormous amount of things in the Bible from the Genesis creation to the artificial insemination of Mary. I do not understand why it is hard for you to understand this but I, GCSTroop, deny the presence of a deity, a savior, or the fact that the Bible is anything other than a collection of myths and stories used as a feeble and brutal explanation for why man is here.

I, GCSTroop, deny that Jesus Christ was a savior, a son of god, or anything more than a 1st century magician with an eloquent tongue. I do not understand why it is so hard for you to grasp that.

Trying to prove the Bible is the word of God with the Bible is about as circular in logic as it gets. It seems you are attempting to stoop to levels of complete absurdity to try and prove a point.

As far as the remains of the armies in the Red Sea... Do you have a link for that? I'm very curious as to what was found and what was claimed to have been found. Something tells me there is going to be a scientific fallacy involved. That's ok. I enjoy debunking them. It gives me something to do.

Let's not mince words. I do appreciate the conversation, but let's not sit here and act like we both agree the Bible has some merit to it. I deny it as the word of God and so, to me, your approach needs to be that of trying to prove fiction to be non-fiction. For that, it's going to require a lot more than someone saying "In the future a once great country will stumble."

Good, now that we're over that hurdle, let's talk science. I'd love for you to present me with empirical proof of your claim. I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen. I'm saying that I'm skeptical and that it requires investigation. Up for the challenge?

Can I add my name to your post ? I agree with you 100%.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people cannot accept that many of us do not in any way shape or form believe what the bible says. Never have, never will. Unless PROVEN otherwise.

And most of all why does it bother them so much ?

I see the Bible as a collection of myths and stories, about as believable as Greek or Norse Mythology and let's face it a lot less interesting or fun to read.

The very essence of Faith is that it is based on anything but logic, reason or empirical evidence so why on earth do they mind so much that some of us do find it illogical, unreasonable and completely unbelievable ?

What is so hard to understand about Atheism.

I do not believe in a creator , a deity, a supreme human being. I do not believe in the Bible, I do not believe plain and simple.

Some of us need proof. Some kind of empirical scientific evidence, based on logic, the application of scientific methods .

I will be perfectly willing to admit how wrong I was to the entire world when I see and hear God myself. With my own eyes. In the flesh. In person.

When he deigns to show himself to me then maybe I will change my mind. I am constantly told he loves me, so surely that wouldn't be too much to ask for ?

Until then I don't hold my breath.

Atheist are always asked to demonstrate the absence of God which is of course impossible. Something which does not exist cannot be proven not to exist. Surely even the dimmest of minds can comprehend that concept.

On the other hand a positive should be pretty easy for our staunch believers to prove ?

He exists. The Bible is true. That's a pretty positive thing to say so PROVE IT. Preferably with something else than fuzzy and vague feelings and emotions and rather undefined notions of God's existence.

Something concrete would really help us deluded Atheists to come to terms with the error of our ways....
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,916,991 times
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It took me a couple of seconds, but I found this link about the Red Sea crossing site.

Red Sea Crossing
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:08 AM
 
3,124 posts, read 4,914,273 times
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Originally Posted by HsvMike View Post
It took me a couple of seconds, but I found this link about the Red Sea crossing site.

Red Sea Crossing
How about an objective site?
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,916,991 times
Reputation: 488
So someone asks for proof, and now it has to be from more than one source? Honestly I have never been to that site before, I just ran a search for "Red Sea Crossing Site" and that is the first thing that popped up. It had a description, pictures, so there is some proof. Take it for what it is.
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