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Teaching the theory that cells evolved into humans and that evolution is a potential explanation of biodiversity is fine with me. However, it is difficult for some people to not ask the question: well then, where did these cells and matter ultimately come from? Once a teacher answers that question, they are no longer involved in scientific theory, but religion regardless of whether they are supporting a materialistic cause or supernatural cause--it is this that should not be included in the class room. However, if teachers really are telling their students that life itself arose out of nothingness, then I believe it is the right of theists to demand God be included in the science classroom.
In my science classes, I didn't have any problems with my professors--they didn't move away from science and into religion. In the classroom, don't tell me where you think life ultimately came from and I won't give you my view.
Teaching the theory that cells evolved into humans and that evolution is a potential explanation of biodiversity is fine with me. However, it is difficult for some people to not ask the question: well then, where did these cells and matter ultimately come from? Once a teacher answers that question, they are no longer involved in scientific theory, but religion regardless of whether they are supporting a materialistic cause or supernatural cause--it is this that should not be included in the class room. However, if teachers really are telling their students that life itself arose out of nothingness, then I believe it is the right of theists to demand God be included in the science classroom.
The correct answer for the teacher to give is "we don't know yet".
Again, god cannotbe tested. It is therefore an unscientific concept and thus not part of science. If people want god in schools then the correct place for it would be religious education where they teach kids about as many religions as possible or if they have a problem with that then a private school would do
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Originally Posted by ainulinale
In my science classes, I didn't have any problems with my professors--they didn't move away from science and into religion. In the classroom, don't tell me where you think life ultimately came from and I won't give you my view.
Yesterday in biology our professor was talking about Darwins 4 year long trip and how after publishing his book he was severely discriminated against by the church. He made no mention about the existence or lack of the deity known as god at all
I'll ask you again: why do you think this? Are you assuming evolution is incompatible with the existence of God? If so, why?
I HAVE answered you a couple of times. I can ask you the same question!! "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK EVOLUTION IS COMPATIBLE to GOD"?
This question is pertaining to THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD AND LIFE!!!!! I wasn't saying evolution couldn't happen, but if you are referring to the BEGINNING of LIFE and call it Evolution, this leaves God out of the Creation part.
Evolution is NOT compatible, if it is denying that God created the Earth and the Beginning of Life.
I HAVE answered you a couple of times. I can ask you the same question!! "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK EVOLUTION IS COMPATIBLE to GOD"?
This question is pertaining to THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD AND LIFE!!!!! I wasn't saying evolution couldn't happen, but if you are referring to the BEGINNING of LIFE and call it Evolution, this leaves God out of the Creation part.
Evolution is NOT compatible, if it is denying that God created the Earth and the Beginning of Life.
Lol well as long as we are changing the meaning of words here to what they are not then referring to anarchism and calling it christianity means its incompatible with economics.
Abiogenesis=origin of life
Darwinism=ye olde theory of the origin of species
Besides, why couldn't god have started the first living organism from organic material in thermophillic conditions instead of poofing it by magic?
No, this is giving the 2 ways the Earth was possibly created and how.
So now we have only 2 ways the Earth was possibly created? What about the theory that the earth is a marble and was created by kids playing marbles? Or, what about the theory that the earth was created using Jelly Beans baked in an oven and the let dry?
How many theories which we have zero evidence for would you like to include (along with intelligent design)?
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Creation has been taught from beginning..
So was burning witches.. but we don't do that anymore..
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
and you just want to shelf it and talk about the Big Bang this seems awfully one sided to me.
One sided.. tell me this.. If a doctor tells you that you have a cold (using scientific evidence) do you tell the doctor.. "Well that seems a little one sided.." Again.. we are back to the "sides" thing again. One "side" thinks there are "sides".. the other "side" thinks there is science.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I'm not saying don't teach Evolution just don't act like this is fact and no other opinion, a brief discussion and move on.
but it is a fact.. I don't understand.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
My sons science teacher last year, did a brief discussion on Creation, even though it wasn't in the science curriculum and the rest of science was just that science, not about God, so the two can be done, it just depends on the teacher. His view was a little different, then his 8th grade teacher.
Really? I thought it was your son that brought it up and then was labled a "church boy". Confused.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
When my son brought this up, he got labeled by the TEACHERS as a 'CHURCH BOY'.
Anyway.. thats besides the point.. your sons science teacher teaching creation (if thats true) might want to brush up on the ole resume if it was in a public school.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
They don't even need to go into Bible detail, the mentioning of God as Creator and move along................
What if a child believes that the earth is a giant marble created in a factory in an "upper world". It has as much credit as "Intelligent Design". Again.. just disregard the fact that there are no facts backing up "Intelligent Design".
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Like I said before, this would only imply if they are talking about "The Beginning of the Earth and Mankind". No other time does it need to be mentioned.
Actually at no time should it be mentioned since it isn't science.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
God is not a part of science, but if He is the Creator of ALL, why wouldn't HE be part of science??
That is your view. Failure to realize that is how ridiculous this conversation has become.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
To only be able to speak of God in our homes is just what Satan wants.
No. To only be able to teach that God created everything as a science in your home is just what normal people want.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Many are allowing the trap to be set and the education of our children will fail and is failing.
Children fail for a multitude of reasons. More than likely the prevailing reason is that the parents aren't as involved as they should be.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
We mustn't put God in a box and be embarrassed to speak of Him outside of our homes.
Speak about him all you want.. Just don't teach "intelligent design" in science class..
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Believe me, I don't think the speaking of Evolution will leave the classroom, but God already has.
Good.. gives parents more of a reason to spend time with their kids at home and teach them whatever they want.. to their little hearts desire.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I believe in the Old Earth and to me this leaves plenty of belief that God created the World.
Good. Believe to your hearts content. Teach whatever you like.. AT HOME! "Intelligent Design" has been shown time and time again to have zero merit in the a scientific classroom. None.. zero. None at all.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Not only Christians, believe in God, so this is not just a Christian view that God created the WORLD.
But thats the point. In finance class you don't teach "If you believe you'll be rich.. you'll get there". You teach the fundamentals of financial analysis, accounting etc and work within a given set of rules (i.e. math) to provide a framework from which one can work. You don't just teach.. "If you believe you'll be rich.. then it will happen"
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I was taught this way and I wasn't even a Christian in school, I wasn't totally confused by the teachings.
Not being mean here.. but I think you are totally confused by the teachings.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I don't get your resists on Creation.
Nor do I get your confusion on my confusion. Intelligent Design is a CHRISTIAN concept masking itself as "Science" to get a toehold in the classroom. Nothing more.. nothing less. From what I can tell it is an agenda of the "Discovery Institute" being used by less knowledgeable folks to say "yeah.. why isn't God in the classroom". Its less than honest in its endeavours.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
This kind of passiveness is exactly why we don't have prayer in school and Pledge of Allegiance is on it's way out.
Do some research.. tell me when "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance.. Hint.. around 1954. Are you telling me that before 1954 America was just a bunch of heathens? Come on.. Again.. noting the pledge in your argument just shows me that you want "God" in school no matter what.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
God never meant to be a PROBLEM in our SOCIETY.
God isn't a problem in our society. Teach God at home. Let science teachers teach science.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Like I said before, it's not like we have to go around talking about God in school and making a big deal about Him. But, to think He should NEVER be mentioned.
Again.. did I ever say NEVER be mentioned. Mention him/her all you want in a religion/philosophy course. Heck even City-data.com has a "Science/Technology" section that is seperate from the "Religoin/Philosophy" forum.. This is not rocket science.. or as ID would call it.. "God created the rocket science.." Sorry.. couldn't resist.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
People will always find things to be offend by, but to think we are going to let them convince us that the only place to talk about God is at HOME, should be very offensive to any believer in God.
Repeat after me..
Replace "Talk about God is at home" with "Taught as creator of in science class at home". Rinse and repeat.
Teaching the theory that cells evolved into humans and that evolution is a potential explanation of biodiversity is fine with me. However, it is difficult for some people to not ask the question: well then, where did these cells and matter ultimately come from? Once a teacher answers that question, they are no longer involved in scientific theory, but religion regardless of whether they are supporting a materialistic cause or supernatural cause--it is this that should not be included in the class room. However, if teachers really are telling their students that life itself arose out of nothingness, then I believe it is the right of theists to demand God be included in the science classroom.
In my science classes, I didn't have any problems with my professors--they didn't move away from science and into religion. In the classroom, don't tell me where you think life ultimately came from and I won't give you my view.
I remember that question be asked in high school biology. The answer I still think should be said is the one that my teacher stated:
"We don't have any scientific evidence to conclusively prove any particular theory at this moment."
No, you’ve responded to me a couple of times. You haven’t answered that question once.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
I can ask you the same question!! "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK EVOLUTION IS COMPATIBLE to GOD"?
Because nothing about evolution indicates God couldn’t have been responsible for it.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
This question is pertaining to THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD AND LIFE!!!!! I wasn't saying evolution couldn't happen, but if you are referring to the BEGINNING of LIFE and call it Evolution, this leaves God out of the Creation part. Evolution is NOT compatible, if it is denying that God created the Earth and the Beginning of Live
So far as I’m aware, nothing about evolution either supports or denies the idea that God created the earth and the beginning of life. That’s why I asked you whether you were assuming evolution was incompatible with God. If you think it is please show where the incompatibility lies. If you can’t do that, please stop claiming the two ideas aren’t compatible.
No, this is giving the 2 ways the Earth was possibly created and how. Creation has been taught from beginning and you just want to shelf it and talk about the Big Bang this seems awfully one sided to me. I'm not saying don't teach Evolution just don't act like this is fact and no other opinion, a brief discussion and move on.
Right here you've already proved to me that you're out of your realm and that's fine. Let's not mince words and act like there isn't sufficient evidence for a Big Bang. Your contribution that the Big Bang seems one sided is because there is so much evidence to support one at this time that you really would be ignorant to say otherwise. As far as what caused the Big Bang, I'd be happy to leave that up for conjecture until science figures out the answer, IF and WHEN it figures out the answer. Saying that the Big Bang didn't happen is, at this point in the game, like saying the Earth is flat. Seriously. Do some research on it. The evidence is knock you on your butt enormous.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
My sons science teacher last year, did a brief discussion on Creation, even though it wasn't in the science curriculum and the rest of science was just that science, not about God, so the two can be done, it just depends on the teacher. His view was a little different, then his 8th grade teacher.
I think the teacher should be admonished. Just my personal opinion.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
They don't even need to go into Bible detail, the mentioning of God as Creator and move along................
Which God? Ra? Zeus? Yahweh? Allah? Shiva? Sounds like one's selective choice of religion trying to be forced into the classroom to me.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Like I said before, this would only imply if they are talking about "The Beginning of the Earth and Mankind". No other time does it need to be mentioned. God is not a part of science, but if He is the Creator of ALL, why wouldn't HE be part of science??
The problem is that that is not good science. Because we can't prove that a God exists, much less created everything, we can't just go around throwing blatant scientific assertions that limits exploration into the matter. We just can't call it science. That's the whole point and that's why things of this nature are often ridiculed with Flying Spaghetti Monster analogies. We can't prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is any more realistic than the Christian God and therefore it would be bad science to assume that the Flying Spaghetti Monster reached down with his noodly appendage and created the heavens and earth. On top of that, it would just stand to ridicule your beliefs in God, but it is just as scientifically empirical as your assertion. That's the problem. That's how awfully bad bad science can get if you just start throwing deities around as if they're scientific proof.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
To only be able to speak of God in our homes is just what Satan wants. Many are allowing the trap to be set and the education of our children will fail and is failing. We mustn't put God in a box and be embarrassed to speak of Him outside of our homes.
I disagree. I don't want to hear about him. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them being taught in school that God was the reason things are the way they are. I'd much rather take care of that on my own by teaching them what other people believe and encouraging them to develop rational and critical thinking skills. If that leads them towards God, then fine, so be it, but it won't be because some public education system crammed it down their throats. I'm not going to pay taxes so my children can be indoctrinated. That is, of course, if I had children.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
And I commented this................ I only implied there are SOME scientist, who try to disprove God with the Evolution Theory.
Can you honestly name one scientist who has done so? I'd like to see a study where a reputable scientist asserted the notion that evolution disproves God in entirety. It seems that the only people making those assertions are the Creationists. I'd like to see some cited reference on this.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Scientist for the most part, are like the rest of us, I would assume, have an idea of their religious belief or non-religious belief, before they go to collage. Not to say that through the study of science, they can change either way.
There's a difference in scientist denying God, and teachers calling it a Fact that God didn't create the World!!
Teachers don't call it a fact that god created the world. They didn't when I was in high school and I'm pretty sure you'd hear about it if they did. What teachers may say is that at the current moment in time there is no scientific evidence to support the Intelligent Design/Creationism theory. That's it. It doesn't mean it DIDN'T happen that way, it's that there have been no significant findings (short of altering original scientific work with much dishonesty) to warrant ID/Creationism as a valid explanation. Sorry, science doesn't deal in "Oh my, look at how beautiful that is, it must be God's handiwork." That's just not science. I'm sorry. It's not a valid argument.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Believe me, I don't think the speaking of Evolution will leave the classroom, but God already has. Creation is based on something of greater power and intelligence and it does take Faith. Evolution CAN be based on facts,theory and Faith that God didn't create the World.
I don't think you fully get the way science is performed. The interjection of having faith that god didn't create the world doesn't really have anything to do with what happens biologically and genetically to a creature/species/animal. I don't see how you can make that parallel.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
But I thought "God did it"!! was the answer!!
Well, as you know there are two theories here and it's the Young Earth and the Old Earth. I believe in the Old Earth and to me this leaves plenty of belief that God created the World.
It most certainly leaves room for plenty of belief that God created the world. Without a doubt. In fact, if you are daring, perhaps you would like to read a book by Ken Miller (an absolutely brilliant biologist) who has managed to keep his faith in God rather strong in spite of everything he knows about evolution. It's called Finding Darwin's God and, again, it's by Ken Miller. I highly suggest it. Perhaps it might open your eyes as to what having faith in god and evolution entail.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Then you could EASILY quite EASILY, not start with the Earth just Evolved and were not sure but a Big Bang happened and look we are all here!!! Anything else they want to talk about and not discuss God is fine. Not only Christians, believe in God, so this is not just a Christian view that God created the WORLD.
Yet, you tried to interject the argument that God (of some form) created the Earth and the Universe. What is the appropriate response to the student who asks "Which God?" Because if my kids went to a school that said such a thing you better believe they're going to ask that question.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Might look at it like this, some believe God comes with facts and theory and that is how Evolution explains it's self facts and theory. I believe there's room for both without confusion. I was taught this way and I wasn't even a Christian in school, I wasn't totally confused by the teachings. I don't get your resists on Creation.
The resistance from Creation being taught as science is because it is merited in scientific fact. In fact, at the Supreme Court trial (Kitzmiller) in Dover, the Supreme Court judge (who was a staunch conservative) even chastised the ID crowd for lying under oath about what they had found. Science doesn't need to lie. It just follows facts. It's sad that so many fun-loving, good-natured Christians are sucked into a world of deceitful lies when it seems they are so outspoken about being deceived by Satan and other demons. I dare say, look right in front of your face and you'll find the masters of the craft pumping out this nonsense into people's lives who honestly don't know any better.
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Well, this I could say the same about you. This kind of passiveness is exactly why we don't have prayer in school and Pledge of Allegiance is on it's way out. Science can be taught as science and not as FACT that Evolution is the start of Creation, this is all I'm saying. God never meant to be a PROBLEM in our SOCIETY.
Again, your griping and pandering seems to be about the Christian God. Why should we cater to your specific belief and ignore mine or the Muslim childs'???
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Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds
Like I said before, it's not like we have to go around talking about God in school and making a big deal about Him. But, to think He should NEVER be mentioned. People will always find things to be offend by, but to think we are going to let them convince us that the only place to talk about God is at HOME, should be very offensive to any believer in God.
He NEVER should be mentioned because of my demon-spawn children who will persist in asking tough questions about why they are teaching a specific brand of Christianity into the public school systems. In all seriousness though, God has no place in a public school and you'll never win these cases because the Constitution has been upheld so righteously. Only until ID/Creationism can support it's outrageous theories with solid, hard, scientific theories that aren't a subversion of the Christian religion will they be considered as part of the curriculum in science class. Until then, it is not science, just mere conjecture and wishful thinking. That doesn't constitute science regardless of how much you think it does.
I remember that question be asked in high school biology. The answer I still think should be said is the one that my teacher stated:
"We don't have any scientific evidence to conclusively prove any particular theory at this moment."
We have the first law of thermodynamics. If energy and matter can not have a beginning or end, then the contents necessary for life have always existed in some form.
We have the first law of thermodynamics. If energy and matter can not have a beginning or end, then the contents necessary for life have always existed in some form.
Right, I agree, but the how's, where's, what's and when's are still not scientificually and conclusively proven to put forth a particular theory as any more realistic than others. Currently, string theory is about the closest we have to that and it's make leaps and bounds mathematically but it still isn't proven to the extent of warranting it as fact.
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I can ask you the same question!! "WHAT MAKES YOU THINK EVOLUTION IS COMPATIBLE to GOD"? 
