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No, this is not what I am saying. This is perhaps an irrelevant example. You are talking about laws and rules that we have agreed upon. It has hardly anything to do with using our logic and intelligence to re-invent this wheel. We already agree that 2+2 = 4
Now, here is an example that perhaps you and I can talk about.
I go out to my driveway, and take a few small stones and put them together in a way that they form the shape of alphabets that spell my name.
I take my cell phone and take a pic of that in order to save my design.
I then put all these stones in a bucket, and toss them in the air, and let them land on the concrete to see if the same design can be formed again? I repeat this quite a few times and notice that it's not happening.
I realize that I don't seem to have an in-depth control and calculated energy where I can toss the stones in the air in such a way that if they land, it will form the the alphabets of my name.
Now, I look at the design of our solar system. I see the circular and oval orbits formed by different planets around the sun.
My logic tells me that it's not possible for this formation to have come together on it's own. There is definitely a design and a designer behind it.
while your logic may tell you otherwise. Your intelligence and your logic may tell you that yes, indeed the design of our solar system is created randomly by chance. There is no force behind all this to design all this.
This is the logical difference I am talking about.
Here is another example,
I have taken a course on the subject of "probability".
My logic asks a simple question when I look at the two pics below.
What's the probability of Fibonacci spiral being present in the shape of galaxies and also inside the cabbage?
Is it by chance or is it by design?
My logic and intelligence tells me that probability of this phenomenon is almost impossible to have been randomly present in the galaxies and inside the cabbage.
Your logic and intelligence may tell you otherwise.
So yeah, it's not about what's 2+2, it's about whether all of the universe and everything in it came together by itself, or whether there is a creator behind it?
As Einstein said,
“Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible laws and connections, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.
I am ok repeating shapes. With the information we have, a creator making us doesn't match observations. We were created, laying out the information we have, we are probably in a living system. At least that's a more reasonable claim than the claim we are not. And more valid then the piece meal thing they say.
but an all powerful thing raising people from the dead, damning gays to hell, making the earth in 6 days, just does not match the observations that point to something making us.
For me, its the traits you guys assign to it. I don't know what it is. What ever it is does not match many of the traits you assign. Things like "love" and "hate", sure possible. But there is no magic.
There is something true and real about referring to the Bible as the so-called "word of God". To most average people, God is represented by the ruling class, even though they would not admit it. But the intellectuals who are atheists understand that the Bible was written by people who may have been a part of that ruling class. Written by people who were educated and privileged. Those are the kind of people who wrote anything at all. In order to write something back then, one must have had the education and the leisure to do so. They invented stories about average people interacting with God, and there was truth to the stories in that sense. The writer may have believed in God, but he was writing about it from his own observation of the beliefs of people in general.
The average person (today) might not have related to being a part of that ruling class back then. So even today, they would naturally identify with the person who saw those writings as coming from "God", because it was a perspective that was unknown to the average man.
That's a neat idea But I can't buy it, despite the idea he Biblical OT scripture was commissioned by the ruling dudes and would do well o support heir authority. But gods - ribal and national - were only too well known to the common people of the time,
That's a neat idea But I can't buy it, despite the idea he Biblical OT scripture was commissioned by the ruling dudes and would do well o support heir authority. But gods - ribal and national - were only too well known to the common people of the time,
I don't think anyone "commissioned" scripture to be written. The rulers definitely used the scriptures as they found them, to their advantage. But they probably believed it themselves, and just interpreted them in a way that was beneficial to serving them, since everyone believes they are right and therefore must be served by all things such as scriptures.
The common people believed them. But the people who read the stories might not have even been born when they were written. They might have slowly gotten popular over a number of years, but their origins were lost by then. So I don't buy the idea that they were being written and read by the common public at the same time. Otherwise their origins would have been passed down in some way.
The only thing passed down was that "Moses" wrote the first five books. A fictional character wrote them. That's why I can't buy that.
The Bible was 100% written by men---all of whom were expressing their faith in an individual fashion. It's easy enough to spot many sometimes opposed views because God is situational and speaks to each generation in a manner that has moved us ahead morally. So what was considered taboo at one time became acceptable in another.
But those folks who want their god to fit a standard which supports their own prejudice make up mountains of stories to keep the God of the OT stuck on top of a mountain and unable to see his own creations maturing over time. Our morality has grown even in the last couple of centuries as we went from almost 100% believing slavery was the result of Hamm's sin to seeing all of us as more equal than history dictates. Women are now becoming pastors in churches. A gay man became the presiding bishop in the Episcopalian Church of the U.S.
We are growing morally, but not without the pain of many generations prior---all the way back to OT days. In a hundred years people will look back on the churches of today and wonder why so many of us were prejudiced against Christian LGBTQ people, just as we look back and wonder why blacks weren't allowed in our churches (I attended one of those as a teenaged boy in Mississippi).
We've pretty much outgrown the interdenominational wars of the past, which have only in the last two or three decades subsided in Belfast.
The Bible is a collection of writings by more than 66 authors, redacted by many others, that shows the growth of morality (and sometimes no growth) in the faith that then existed.
God wouldn't want his children maturing faster than they are capable of handling!
And actually, Ozzy, there were a minimum of four authors of the first five books of the Bible. look up JEDP theory on Wiki to obtain a brief summary of what I got in New Testament 101!
Baseless claim, unless you can show me how the Koran has just as much fulfilled prophecy, Islam has just as many testimonies of supernatural encounters and miracle healings. There is even a worldwide annual conference of Christian doctors who meet to share their experiences with miracle healing and documented proof of such things. Does Islam have an equivalent?
....
The alleged lack of fulfilled prophesies in the Quran could be taken to mean it is more honest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
......
It is more irrational to believe that we gave from a pile of goop, humans are nothing much bags of cells, and things like love are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain.
Couldn't agree with you more. But who believes these things?
By 'a pile goop' do you perhaps mean a mound of clay or dirt? Your very own bible tells you that we were formed from a mound of dirt/clay/soil. Are you saying that this is an irrational belief?
I already did. I shared a video of an Indian man having his bum leg restored. No mental games because there was a language barrier. It was never given a moment of consideration. And yes, you would even laugh off a video of a limb growing back. Claim it is tricky. They did the same thing in Jesus day.
Plus, most Muslims are a product of their culture. If I was raised in a cult like atmosphere from birth, I would also believe without doubt.
All people like you do is keep putting up conditions and barriers on evidence which only demonstrates a complete sincere lack of desire to see evidence that proves God.
BS. A dislocated leg is a bum leg that can easily be restored. I asked for complete limbs.
Guess what? You were raised in a cult, no different than the Muslims.
No, we keep asking for viable evidence that would pass your test if it were presented by another religion. The reality is that if you had viable evidence, there would be no other religions. Again, you are a zealot who has settled for tradition and a place in your cult.
Couldn't agree with you more. But who believes these things?
No one who truly understands science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy
By 'a pile goop' do you perhaps mean a mound of clay or dirt? Your very own bible tells you that we were formed from a mound of dirt/clay/soil. Are you saying that this is an irrational belief?
Funny how he misses this point completely. LOL
Pile of goop...what the heck does that even mean? I guess he feels more comfortable in thinking we came from clay/dirt/soil. *shrug*
For me, its the traits you guys assign to it. I don't know what it is. What ever it is does not match many of the traits you assign. Things like "love" and "hate", sure possible. But there is no magic.
I think this is where you either purposely or unconsciously come out as blind folded from one side. Why don't you see the flip side of the coin?
There are MANY believers who have spent their entire lives working for the benefit of fellow human beings.
Lots of charity work, donations, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, orphan houses, shelter for homeless, building of hospitals, animal shelters, volunteer work in disastrous areas, providing free education and free medical care to needy, and quite a few things.
Why don't you be generous enough to give credit where due to all those religious people and believers who have stepped up and did their part of doing what's good and beneficial for others?
I think its "human nature".
Be it a group of religious people, a bunch of politicians, a group of doctors, a group of Atheists, a group of teachers, policemen, social workers, Asians, Americans, European, Japanese, blacks, whites, Browns ...,,,, no matter what group you look at, you will ALWAYS find good and bad people.
So it's not only what religion brings to you, but also it's what YOU bring to religion. And this philosophy can be applied to any group.
We have a human nature that has the capacity of doing a lot of good, and also doing a lot of bad.
It's then up to each individual as to which route he wants to take regardless of whether he comes up as a religious person or an Atheists, or a doctor, or a policeman, or Japanese or whatever.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 05-19-2017 at 12:27 AM..
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I guess he feels more comfortable in thinking we came from clay/dirt/soil. *shrug*
