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I don't know what exactly your point is, from this, to be honest. Simplify for me. Your stance is....Paul = against law completely or Paul = faking law to please Pharisees, or some other premise. What?
BTW government office comment cracked me up....love your sense of humor. Peace
The hypothesis I argue is that Paul was a Roman citizen - a "Greek" in the gospel sense. A Hellenized Jew, and living more as a Hellene than as a Jew.
Thus he waas opposed to Jesus -followers (Persecuted the church) because he saw it as anti -Roman, as did the Sanhedrin which was really part of the Roman provincial administration.
However, as a Pharisee, he was aware that the Romans were doomed in the end because when the resurrection of the last days happened, it would be curtains for non -Jews, because they were not God's people.
The conversion may have been a blinding light as in Acts, or a cozy chat with Jesus in the Third heaven (II Cor. 12) but it came to him that Romans too, could become God's people through Faith in Jesus. They would not be likely to become Law -observing Jews - so get rid of the Law. The Jews could keep it, but that wouldn't save them. Faith in Jesus would.
This message is set out in Galatians 3.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You have NO IDEA just how much of a blank slate I was prior to my conversion from being agnostic. Difference is I closed myself up with the book, after receiving HIS SPIRIT via BAPTISM (not just inward anointing) and believed the scripture that said He would teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance. I also willfully accepted that I didn't KNOW ANYTHING so He could teach me EVERYTHING. It was more than a fair trade. Peace
Okay. What does it mean to you when Jesus says the two instructions to love God and each other encompass ALL the law???
The hypothesis I argue is that Paul was a Roman citizen - a "Greek" in the gospel sense. A Hellenized Jew, and living more as a Hellene than as a Jew.
Thus he waas opposed to Jesus -followers (Persecuted the church) because he saw it as anti -Roman, as did the Sanhedrin which was really part of the Roman provincial administration.
However, as a Pharisee, he was aware that the Romans were doomed in the end because when the resurrection of the last days happened, it would be curtains for non -Jews, because they were not God's people.
The conversion may have been a blinding light as in Acts, or a cozy chat with Jesus in the Third heaven (II Cor. 12) but it came to him that Romans too, could become God's people through Faith in Jesus. They would not be likely to become Law -observing Jews - so get rid of the Law. The Jews could keep it, but that wouldn't save them. Faith in Jesus would.
This message is set out in Galatians 3.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Paul said he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, studied under Gamaliel, blameless concerning the law. THAT is NOT a Helenized Jew living more as a Helene than a Jew. So, I'm sorry, but your claim doesn't stand up to muster. He was also accepted by all the other apostles, as all his letters reveal, and they were afraid of him prior to his conversion precisely BECAUSE HE WAS a Pharisee of Pharisees, slaughtering all those that proclaimed the Messiah had come. Peace
It ir irrelevant that Paul was a descendant of Pharisees or said that he studied under Gamaliel. What matters is what he said about his own actions. He could act like a gentile when he wanted to recruit gentiles (1). He claimed that Jesusfaith made Gentiles part of the promise of Abraham without having to observe Jewish law, and in laler epistle he seems to have regarded the law as not applying to him, either, even though in Romans he says it is binding on all Jews.
His forebears and schooling count less that what he became of his own will.
(1) and he could then behave as a Jew when he wanted to recruit them; that indicates that he was willing to go amongst Jews when he had defiled himself. I doubt that Gamaliel would have been very impressed and - as we see - the Pharisees weren't.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-02-2017 at 11:22 PM..
thats right. If there is an area that you are an expert in, its recruiting for a belief statement.
anti-religion, my religion only, or pro learning. Learning means applying new knowledge even if it counters one previous belief statements. Like a "my god only" claim or "no, nothing, of anything" claims. People that let belief statements superseded knowledge claims are the problem...always.
they, those that push more practical, to myself, belief statements over knowledge statements, have to ignore, minimize, and cover up "knowledge claims" to maintain a belief statement. They, in effect, lesson knowledge claims to make their own belief based world view more real, instead of assimilating new information to make their world view "bigger".
It ir irrelevant that Paul was a descendant of Pharisees or said that he studied under Gamaliel. What matters is what he said about his own actions. He could act like a gentile when he wanted to recruit gentiles (1). He claimed that Jesusfaith made Gentiles part of the promise of Abraham without having to observe Jewish law, and in laler epistle he seems to have regarded the law as not applying to him, either, even though in Romans he says it is binding on all Jews.
His forebears and schooling count less that what he became of his own will.
(1) and he could then behave as a Jew when he wanted to recruit them; that indicates that he was willing to go amongst Jews when he had defiled himself. I doubt that Gamaliel would have been very impressed and - as we see - the Pharisees weren't.
I really don't find that odd behavior or duplicitous, since even though a Jew, he had received the revelation that the law could not SAVE. Try to imagine for a moment what an earth shattering revelation that had to be for him, as a Pharisee of the Pharisees, BLAMELESS in the keeping of the law and it's tenets. Yet he didn't "chuck it all", he continued on living as a Jew, as he testified of himself near the end of his life, STILL worshipping G-d in the manner of his fathers before him.
I think he had a tight rope to walk, trying to maintain the keeping of the law, yet teach that dependence upon it for salvation was impossible, so he had to sometimes walk in both viewpoints in order to uphold BOTH viewpoints, because BOTH are valid. And so he could say, all things are lawful but not all things are expediate (to a righteous end). Meaning, obviously, you can now do away with all those things and still have BASIC salvation, but in so doing you are settling for less than what you COULD have. Which is exactly how I see it.
Paul was basically "walking on water", ie. walking "contrary" or "above" the law (waters below the firmament), proving that he was not a ghost (judged dead from sins and trespasses), just as Jesus did, in principle and in shoe leather sometimes. Peace
It's her Sabbath. She probably doesn't post.
I don't have a lot of truck with her beliefs. Ok. Hardly any. But she has guts and doesn't bow easily to a strong, dissenting wind.
And I believe she believes in her wrongness.
And I am sad about that.
I hate to see a person with a good spirit become ensnared in a wrong, tangled path.
I agree and it is sad, to have such zeal and certainty in defense of such unloving doctrines.
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Peace
