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Of course NOT! I have experienced God so I know God exists and it has nothing to do with science. BUT, I have used science to explain to my intellect that science provides enough information to support plausible explanations for the existence of God and our role in it. You and Tzaph seem to suffer from the same delusion that Faith REQUIRES belief in something that makes no sense and for which there is no conceivable justification. That makes Faith preposterous, NOT something admirable. Do you have faith that Leprechauns exist and have a pot of gold hidden somewhere? Why not if there is no need for any basis for Faith as you and Tzaph seem to suggest.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Which means science is your theology.
Which is why when I asked what books inform you and guide you in your theology you listed science books.
You reject and ridicule faith.
::Sigh:: Wrong. I merely point out that faith must have some basis. Faith in Leprechauns has none. Faith in God DOES because reality exists and is God.
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The foundation and essence of being in relationship with God is faith.
Wrong. You have it backward. Faith is the RESULT of being in a relationship with God. The foundation is KNOWING God exists.
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You are saying it is preposterous to have faith in God.
I said no such thing about God. I was talking about baseless faith, period.This lying and misrepresenting what is said is why discussing anything with you is so frustrating. To use your words:
You've missed the whole point.
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And your standard insults of "delusion" and "preposterous" show yet again the low regard you have for faith in God and for people who have faith in God. There is nothing "intellectual" about that. And there most certainly is nothing of God's love in that.
::Sigh:: More lies. I have tremendous respect and love for people who love God and have faith in Jesus and God. There is no insult involved. The delusion I refer to was clearly described. It is that Faith REQUIRES belief in something that makes no sense and for which there is no conceivable justification. That IS preposterous. You seem to conflate faith in the existence of God with faith in whatever stories and narrative you find in your preferred writings and their interpretations of God. Those are very different things and the justification for them differs.
Of course NOT! I have experienced God so I know God exists and it has nothing to do with science. BUT, I have used science to explain to my intellect that science provides enough information to support plausible explanations for the existence of God and our role in it. You and Tzaph seem to suffer from the same delusion that Faith REQUIRES belief in something that makes no sense and for which there is no conceivable justification. That makes Faith preposterous, NOT something admirable. Do you have faith that Leprechauns exist and have a pot of gold hidden somewhere? Why not if there is no need for any basis for Faith as you and Tzaph seem to suggest.
...I have tremendous respect and love for people who love God and have faith in Jesus and God. There is no insult involved.
NO you do not show respect for people and there is plenty of insult. You constantly put people down. You are anti religion you are anti faith in God and you belittle people constantly for their religious views and for their faith. You do it in the opening post of this thread and 2,173 posts later you still do it. No matter how many times people bring it to your attention over how many years across how many threads.
That's not emulating God's love. That's not intellectual. Here are God's beloved children with their faith in God and all His wonders and miracles and you call it delusional and preposterous. Do you think this makes God happy?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The delusion I refer to was clearly described. It is that Faith REQUIRES belief in something that makes no sense and for which there is no conceivable justification. That IS preposterous....
That's exactly what faith in God is
You may believe in God.
But you dont have faith in God.
And it is apparent that you don't know the difference.
It comes from a whole different place and from faith flows living our life in a whole different way. You don't get that and you don't do that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-15-2017 at 03:22 PM..
....I don't think that Reality is intrinsically fair or just. Rather, fairness and justice need to be earned, not simply assumed. I don't think there is a God who can ultimately just kiss our booboo's and make them all better.
I'm also unsure about the assumption that God (if such a being exists) is all good. I suspect that "God" is just, basically, "us" (the totality of beings). If we are not pure good, then God is not pure good either. "God" is no better or worse than our collective efforts as conscious beings. (Although I suppose one could try to identify all of our best potentials for beauty and goodness and call this "God." Despite a certain arbitrariness in assigning this label, there could be some genuine practical benefits in performing an act of anthropomorphicism and worshipping this "God" if it spurs us to be better people.)
we differ there.
I am certain and have faith in God who is mercy, compassion, justice, generosity, kindness, comfort beneficence and yes good.
it sounds like you can't see or conceive of any thing greater than well just people.
those are your views and your beliefs.
if all it ever is to a person is ideas and concepts and a bunch of words for argument and debate and discussion then nothing happens and nothing changes. it means nothing if we do not practice it in our daily life. if we see another person suffering it's not "figuring out the meaning" of suffering it is how we respond to it. Do we collapse into a place of upset, discouragement, anger, it's not fair, depression, numbness, call god the big meanie in the sky. Or do we pour forth more comfort compassion, kindness, and encouragement to others in our own life? Free choice in any situation including seeing the suffering of other, is asking what does this ask of me, who does this ask me to become, how do i respond to this.
Regarding your comment I don't think there is a God who can ultimately just kiss our booboo's and make them all better. Many people including me value the qualities of nurturing, comfort, kindness, compassion, loving presence with someone in their suffering. Those are fine qualities. In your post though it sort of sounds like you dismiss those qualities like you don't think much of them or they have little or no worth. You may have meant it in a scoffing or mocking manner (not sure, you can maybe explain more to clarify, i'm just going by the tone of the post).
But that is a very powerful valuable behavior. Have you never been comforted as a child? Have you never held and comforted a loved one in their suffering? Can you not see the immense power and value in that? whether it is towards a child, or a friend, or a loved one, or from God to us his beloved children. That is exactly what God does, holds us shelters us comforts us guards us in the shadow of his wings. I don't see how someone can cavalierly toss off something so precious.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 12-15-2017 at 04:47 PM..
::Sigh:: Wrong. I merely point out that faith must have some basis. Faith in Leprechauns has none. Faith in God DOES because reality exists and is God. Wrong. You have it backward. Faith is the RESULT of being in a relationship with God. The foundation is KNOWING God exists. I said no such thing about God. I was talking about baseless faith, period.This lying and misrepresenting what is said is why discussing anything with you is so frustrating. To use your words:
You've missed the whole point.
::Sigh:: More lies. I have tremendous respect and love for people who love God and have faith in Jesus and God. There is no insult involved. The delusion I refer to was clearly described. It is that Faith REQUIRES belief in something that makes no sense and for which there is no conceivable justification. That IS preposterous. You seem to conflate faith in the existence of God with faith in whatever stories and narrative you find in your preferred writings and their interpretations of God. Those are very different things and the justification for them differs.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
NO you do not show respect for people and there is plenty of insult. You constantly put people down. You are anti-religion you are anti-faith in God and you belittle people constantly for their religious views and for their faith. You do it in the opening post of this thread and 2,173 posts later you still do it. No matter how many times people bring it to your attention over how many years across how many threads.
I do none of those things. In the OP, I used an anonymous source that described the Christian faith and highlighted the absurd claims. That was NOT my work but it does point out the magical thinking endemic in the dogma which was the point of my OP.
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That's not emulating God's love. That's not intellectual. Here are God's beloved children with their faith in God and all His wonders and miracles and you call it delusional and preposterous. Do you think this makes God happy?
You refuse to believe I act out of love for everyone. That is your prerogative and I cannot convince you of what is in my heart. But the OP IS an intellectual alternative Christian narrative that does NOT require belief in magic. Again, my purpose in the OP is to provide an alternative defense for and a magic-free explanation of the Christian narrative for those same people you say I do not respect or love. I do it so they do NOT have to retain the ancient ignorance and superstitions of the past just to defend their faith in and love for Jesus the Christ.
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You may believe in God.
But you don't have faith in God.
And it is apparent that you don't know the difference.
You do an awful lot of psychic claims about what is in the mind of those who you disagree with. My faith in God is absolute, is entirely consistent with the revelations and demonstration of Jesus about God's true nature, and it significantly contradicts what YOU believe about Him. THAT is what I have no faith in - YOUR contradictory and inconsistent beliefs about God from ancient writings.
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It comes from a whole different place and from faith flows living our life in a whole different way. You don't get that and you don't do that.
I very much get that but I feel an obligation to provide a rational and scientifically plausible basis for belief in God and in the Christian narrative because it makes far more sense to me than the existing magical and demonstrably irrational and absurd ones currently in vogue. For those who have no concern about the rationality of their belief in God, it can simply be ignored. As long as they love God and each other every day and repent when they don't, it will not matter.
After some of your recent posts, you should be more worried about your spirit. I am actually very pleased that you, Rbbi, and pinacled seem to have at least found Jesus. It is part of the prophecy about Him in Isaiah that the Jews would eventually come to Him. But until you completely commit to His love and relinquish all the primitive traditions, you will not have life more abundantly. Just Love God and each other every single day and repent when you don't. Everything else is just human vanity and hubris.
The living word of God is just that, living. It is not in a dead book.
The Bible is a book that helps people discern the living word of God. That is all. It is special because the words of the Bible are inspiring and trigger discernment. Otherwise, it is just a book.
After some of your recent posts, you should be more worried about your spirit. I am actually very pleased that you, Rbbi, and pinacled seem to have at least found Jesus. It is part of the prophecy about Him in Isaiah that the Jews would eventually come to Him. But until you completely commit to His love and relinquish all the primitive traditions, you will not have life more abundantly. Just Love God and each other every single day and repent when you don't. Everything else is just human vanity and hubris.
You got to have faith to believe that you have a soul or a spirit, what about science?
it sounds like you can't see or conceive of any thing greater than well just people.
those are your views and your beliefs.
I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You have a knack for saying the most utterly absurd things. From what I can tell, you take a particular sentence or phrase from a post, then run wild with it - completely divorced from the context of 100s of posts saying and demonstrating just the opposite of whatever thought you happen to be proposing at the moment.
In this case, lack of conceivability is not very likely to be a problem. Conceivability does not imply agreement. I can conceive of things and still not reach the same conclusion as someone else. And it seems you've failed to notice that I'm agnostic precisely because I can conceive to many things that I can't rule out as being possibly true. I simply require some standards of evidence and rational argument before saying I believe in this or that.
I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You have a knack for saying the most utterly absurd things. From what I can tell, you take a particular sentence or phrase from a post, then run wild with it - completely divorced from the context of 100s of posts saying and demonstrating just the opposite of whatever thought you happen to be proposing at the moment.
In this case, lack of conceivability is not very likely to be a problem. Conceivability does not imply agreement. I can conceive of things and still not reach the same conclusion as someone else. And it seems you've failed to notice that I'm agnostic precisely because I can conceive to many things that I can't rule out as being possibly true. I simply require some standards of evidence and rational argument before saying I believe in this or that.
lmao, whats funny, only a few understand what you are saying. 80-20 rule. the 80 know, and they sure are going to tell us how the universe operates based on a statement of belief.
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