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Nate do you eat meat? Do you say a prayer and blessing before and after each meal, before and after each glass of water or cup of tea you drink throughout your day?
In other words, this part of "God's worship system" is only "written for all to see" when you have learned how to cherry-pick properly. Why was it "necessary" while the Temple was standing but not now again?
Does killing animals for food have Anything to do with the Torah system of worship, or is that just another red herring to distract from the fact that you do NOT follow Torah?
In other words, this part of "God's worship system" is only "written for all to see" when you have learned how to cherry-pick properly. Why was it "necessary" while the Temple was standing but not now again?
Does killing animals for food have Anything to do with the Torah system of worship, or is that just another red herring to distract from the fact that you do NOT follow Torah?
read the articles if you actually want the information.
I don't know if you posted this link because you are in favor of animal sacrifice but, in any case, I see the OT advocacy of animal sacrifice as strong evidence that the OT is, at least to some extent, embedded with human ignorance, superstition, and moral immaturity. I want to consider a few quotes from the article:
A: Exactly. And that’s the same problem we have with sacrifices. We have to realize there’s a whole other dimension here that we don’t see. From that dimension, everything makes sense.
It is logically possible that there are higher dimensions from which virtually anything that seems immoral or blatantly absurd might possibly make sense. Once someone believes that animal sacrifice makes sense from some unknown perspective, then I can't prove to them that they are wrong, any more than I can prove to a solipsist that I exist.
Let's consider solipsism for a moment:
Once someone becomes convinced that they are the only reality and everything else is just an illusion, all paths to rational discussion are blocked off. If they become dangerous, we have to lock them into an mental ward. This is the danger of self-sealing subjective or "divine inspiration" beliefs. I can't prove to the solipsist that he is wrong, but I can speak to a wider audience and try to convince them that the solipsist is insane.
Along similar lines, once someone decides that God really did advocate animal sacrifice for divine reasons that are beyond our limited comprehension, all paths to rational discussion are blocked and I can't hope to convince them that they are wrong. But I can speak to a wider audience and try to convince them that this path of spiritual development is misguided and potentially dangerous. Animal sacrifice would be cruel and stupid these days and, in fact, it was always cruel and morally misguided. If there is anything like a loving God, then God never intended for humans to perform animal sacrifice. Nature is cruel and eating meat is a form of Nature's cruelty. I eat meat. I am cruel. I refuse to sugar-coat that blatant disturbing fact with delusions that somehow some higher divine perspective makes it into a spiritual advancement. I am pained by the cruelty of my love for meat. I need to either recognize and acknowledge that pain and learn to live with it, or I need to stop eating meat. But pretending its "all ok" just because some supposed God says its ok is sheer self-delusion.
And it gets worse: Q: So the animal became holy?
A: Thereby having a general effect on all the animals in the world—plus the flour and wine that was used with it, which pulled along all the vegetable world; plus the salt and water, which pulled the inanimate realm along with it...
[...] A: At any rate, there is no reason not to believe that there is consciousness that is not associated with a physical body. And if we would ask one of those conscious beings whether the Temple sacrifices make sense to him/her/it, it/she/he would likely exclaim that it is one of the few things human beings do that make any sense at all! And I bet they’re real peeved that it’s been stopped all these years.
So, not only is it not morally questionable, it is downright good to kill the animal for the animal's own sake. This just multiplies the lunacy and intensifies the potential dangers. By exactly the same logic, I could conclude that disemboweling live children is, from the perspective of some higher dimension, a good thing to do. I'm actually doing the child a favor by inflicting this intense suffering upon her and her family. If a person gets into that frame of mind, there are no pathways of logic by which we can prove to them that they are wrong. Their faith in a "higher dimension" where it all makes perfect sense blocks them off from all ration discussion and make empirical evidence irrelevant.
I can't prove any religious person to be wrong about anything. All I can do is appeal to the intelligence and moral conscience of rational people who are contemplating the idea that "maybe all this religious stuff based on holy books really does make sense" and say "NO!!!" PLEASE don't go down that path of self-serving delusion. It is a form of insanity. I can't prove that its insane, any more than I can prove that solipsism is insane. All I can do is plead. Don't sacrifice your rationality and moral conscience to the self-serving ease of believing that the answers to life's deepest mysteries are solved by reading a book (any book - be it a holy book or a science book). And don't fall for the delusion that things that are seemingly cruel or immoral are really, after all, not cruel or immoral because there is some possibility that some "higher dimensional perspective" makes it not immoral.
Logic and empirical evidence are not perfect safeguards, but they are the best defense that we have against foolishness and avoidable senseless suffering.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 01-08-2018 at 10:06 AM..
... Nature is cruel and eating meat is a form of Nature's cruelty. I eat meat. I am cruel. ...I am pained by the cruelty of my love for meat. I need to either recognize and acknowledge that pain and learn to live with it, or I need to stop eating meat.
...
but you are not pained enough to not eat meat.
got it
in other words, you don't practice what you preach.
so much for your own (your words here) "self serving delusion, moral conscience, intelligence, self-serving ease, lunacy, rationality, and immaturity"
regarding insanity take it up with your therapist or other mental health professional. please. given the hysteria in your post (again to use your phrase) "all paths to rational discussion are blocked."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-08-2018 at 10:53 AM..
but you are not pained enough to not eat meat.
got it
True. I value my own pleasure and convenience above the lives of animals. I don't feel great about that, but as you say, I don't feel bad enough to stop. I spend extra money to buy free-roaming, grass-feed, etc., but the point is this: I don't appeal to unverifiable higher intelligence, etc. to pretend that it's all ok.
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in other words, you don't practice what you preach.
What I'm "preaching" is that we ought to recognize and acknowledge the messy nature of reality. I'm "preaching" that life is grown, not engineered. Maybe there is a "gardener" or maybe not, but I see no good reason to think that the gardener has perfect control over the details of everything that grows, and I really don't see any good reason to think there is a divine engineer with some precisely calculated plan for everything. There is simply no evidence to suggest that everything is really all tied up in a pretty package with a neatly-tied bow. And until I see good evidence or logic for believing in the pretty package, I don't believe it. I simply acknowledge that the mysteries are mysteries.
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...given the hysteria in your post (again to use your phrase) "all paths to rational discussion are blocked."
From my perspective, it seem that you have a very obvious tendency to read your own issues into other people's posts. (If there is anyone in this thread who does not know what I mean by that, please speak up and correct me. It seems to me that Tza interprets people in some highly self-serving ways. If I'm wrong about that, then please step forward in Tza's defense.) Anyway, from my own perspective there is an important difference between "hysteria" and assertiveness, and it seems to me that calling someone hysterical is an all-too-common way to dismiss and belittle their assertions. I believe that some forms of religious irrationality can be literally dangerous and can lead to literally insane behavior. Notice the bold. I'm not saying "all" or "every" etc. I'm simply pointing to possible dangers with faith. I'm also not saying that all faith is bad. I am, again, simply pointing to potential dangers that ought to be acknowledged. I see animal sacrifice as one of many concrete examples of moral corruptness promoted by irrational faith, so I've jumped on this example with some level of excitement - as in "See! Look here! This is an example of what I mean."
Again, if anyone in this thread agrees with Taz's assessment of me, please come forward. I know that I can sometimes be blind to the motes in my own eyes. Am I hysterical? Do I need psychotherapy to overcome mental/emotional disorders that I am presenting to public view here? The first step to correcting a problem is to recognize that there is a problem. If Taz is right, then I'd like to know, but I need so see some corroboration from a larger community because, at the moment, I don't see how these particular criticisms are justified.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 01-08-2018 at 11:54 AM..
... Maybe there is a "gardener" or maybe not, but I see no good reason to think that the gardener has perfect control over the details of everything that grows, and I really don't see any good reason to think there is a divine engineer with some precisely calculated plan for everything. There is simply no evidence to suggest that everything is really all tied up in a pretty package with a neatly-tied bow. And until I see good evidence or logic for believing in the pretty package, I don't believe it. I simply acknowledge that the mysteries are mysteries.
and guess what? billions of people do recognize and acknowledge and understand that there is a gardener and there is design and yes that the world is unfolding with exquisite planning and magnificent Divine Providence. And again you veer into sarcasm and cynical bitterness towards those with views different than yours. Duly noted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof
...
Again, if anyone in this thread agrees with Taz'a assessment of me, please come forward. I know that I can sometimes be blind to the motes in my own eyes. Am I hysterical? Do I need psychotherapy to overcome mental/emotional disorders that I am presenting to public view here?
Your frequent misuse of the terms "insanity" and "delusion" are demonstrated in many posts in more than one thread across many months. I posted a link a while back to another thread where you did the same thing. Clearly you haven't deigned to do any learning in the intervening months. So much for intellect.
My observation is that you and others use those phrases inaccurately, as any mental health professional can clear up for you. My observation also is that you and others are reluctant to actually find out what those terms mean from a mental health professional, and have little to no actual boots-on-the-ground experience with therapy, counseling, and real life experience with a mental health professional. This indicates clearly that your intent is NOT to learn what those terms actually mean and use them in a way that is accurate and (gasp) intelligent, but rather to engage in the asinine internet pastime of spewing condescending and rabidly anti-religion views from the lofty vaunted platform of bloated feigned intellectual supremacy.
if your question is actually sincere, ask a counselor or therapist. because asking people posting online in a religion forum is like walking into a bar and asking the patrons in the bar if you have a problem drinking.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 01-08-2018 at 12:45 PM..
off topic nate already, not going to derail the thread. for further discussion start another thread
The topic is an alternative to magical thinking. Animal sacrifice is part and parcel of magical thinking and you are apparently trying to justify it as a counter argument to the OP by saying that it WAS justified and is no longet in use for some unidentified reason. Continue the topic or just avoid again because you know you don't have a leg to stand on.
and guess what? billions of people do recognize and acknowledge and understand that there is a gardener and there is design and yes that the world is unfolding with exquisite planning and magnificent Divine Providence.
True. But the fact that lots of people believe X does not make X true. Practically everyone thought that the sun and stars revolved around the Earth before Copernicus showed otherwise.
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And again you veer into sarcasm and cynical bitterness towards those with views different than yours.
I'm sorry that you interpret my remarks in that way. I'm trying to simply express my disagreement with certain aspects of religious faith. I suppose that perceiving some potential for dangerous immoral behavior tends to heighten my stubbornness about certain issues, but history is full of examples of people using religious faith as an excuse for morally degenerate behavior. I think that animal religious sacrifice falls into this category. That's really the central point I'm trying to make.
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