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Old 05-29-2017, 04:25 PM
 
9,588 posts, read 5,015,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I believe so. Deliberate and persistent misrepresentation of what evolution theory actually says is basic to the creationist creed. That is why they have mules and donkeys in the creationist petting zoos - as evidence that species interbreeding cannot work. In fact it is because species cannot interbred that enables evolution to work, or all the species would re-absorb each other into a uniform genetic mass that is more in line with Creation - thinking

Because that is not how evolution works. You don't get butterflies changing into mammoths, but mice with big ears turning into mice with small ears, then small eared mice with a different tail, then a small eared mouse getting bigger, then a change of environment leading to a mouse with different teeth, then a mouse with longer legs to catch some of the bugs and lizards it now eats as well as cheese. And guess what -it looks different, lives different and can no longer interbreed with the mouse ancestor. And it merits a different species name.

This happens before our very eyes with Ring species which is the link between evolution -accepted (before you start denying the evidence) by creationists -though they call it 'change' and insist it only can be within species. Ring species shows it goes beyond.

This takes time. Even Eohippus (more like a dog than a horse) to Eqqus is regarded as 'Micro' evolution. So we have to look to the fossil record to show the evidence of Ring species showing undeniable change. And Whales - if the undeniable hand bones of the front flippers wasn't evidence enough - are shown in a fossil sequence as a land animal adapting to sea -life.

When we line these fossils up from Pakicetus through Ambulocetus and Basileosaurus to modern whales, we we find what would be predicted - evolution of the nostrils from the front of the snout in the land animal to the top of the head in the sea -dwelling mammal. We even have a fossil toothed whale with evidence of evolution of baleen. It is only one example. Feathered dinosaurs are another, nearly as good. And there are fish -lizards, and thousands of other example of transitional forms.

This has to be the fossil evidence of undeniable transition from one critter to another. You no longer have the option to pretend evolution is still 'Crocoduck' or to say 'no transitionals'. You have only one option - accept the evidence or deny it.

Geez...... I guess I have start every humorous post with a half a dozen of these?

Here's my take on it. I don't care about it. Evolution doesn't negate anything for me. All that is in this realm, He created from the get go of there even BEING a realm that is not pure Spirit. So why would I care about evolution, as if that's some threat? The ONLY thing about it that is offensive and ridiculous to me, is the core idea that we came from apes.

Granted, I've met some people that I've wondered about over the years that have a strong liking for bananas and can open jars with their feet, but that means nothing, I'm (pretty) sure.

Even with that, if someone wants to believe they came from an ape, go for it. I'll just make sure I buy plenty of stock in Dole bananas.

As for me, I believe we came from Spirit and to Spirit we shall all return. And a recent discovery by scientists bears this out. They just found out the universe is actually slowing down in expansion and even reversing at some point. Hmm, who knew? Oh, that's right, WE did. Peace
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:02 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,563,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Geez...... I guess I have start every humorous post with a half a dozen of these?

Here's my take on it. I don't care about it. Evolution doesn't negate anything for me. All that is in this realm, He created from the get go of there even BEING a realm that is not pure Spirit. So why would I care about evolution, as if that's some threat? The ONLY thing about it that is offensive and ridiculous to me, is the core idea that we came from apes.

Granted, I've met some people that I've wondered about over the years that have a strong liking for bananas and can open jars with their feet, but that means nothing, I'm (pretty) sure.

Even with that, if someone wants to believe they came from an ape, go for it. I'll just make sure I buy plenty of stock in Dole bananas.

As for me, I believe we came from Spirit and to Spirit we shall all return. And a recent discovery by scientists bears this out. They just found out the universe is actually slowing down in expansion and even reversing at some point. Hmm, who knew? Oh, that's right, WE did. Peace
Well you Got Me. But hear now POE's Law - (as if recent flat -earthism hadn't tipped you off) There is no spoof so daft or whacky that it can't be matched seriously by some believer's real views. So, if you are going to spoof -do put in a smiley

Well, you cited Kirk Cameron's idiot Crocoduck so you know some people believe this - in fact pretty much every Creationist anti -evolutionist does, or they'd not misundersand so persistently.

But anyway, thanks, as ever since I found out about the Migrating nostril refinement of the Cetan sequence, I bin itchin to put it in the forum. And I will at least agree with you that evolution is neither here nor there as regards the religion debate - unless one is a Genesis -literalist.
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:05 PM
 
9,588 posts, read 5,015,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Well you Got Me. But hear now ROE's Law - (as if recent flat -earthism hadn't tipped you off) There is no spoof so daft or whacky that it can't be matched seriously by some believer's real views. So, if you are going to spoof -do put in a smiley

Well, you cited Kirk Cameron's idiot Crocoduck so you know some people believe this - in fact pretty much every Creationist anti -evolutionist does, or they'd not misundersand so persistently.

But anyway, thanks, as ever since I found out about the Migraing nostil refinement of the Cetanb sequence, I bin itchin to put in the forum.

Sorry, but I've never been able to force myself to listen to Kirk or Kroc Cameron or watch any of his "Left Behind" movies. We all have to draw the line somewhere. So any similarity was strictly coincidental. Peace

PS. I AM a Genesis literalist, EXCEPT that what is taken literally by most has a spiritual principle underlying it. So, therefore, unlike most I don't believe that we have been 6 thousand literal years only, or that this "place" didn't exist prior to that. It's all in the texts, just not where most are looking and not certainly not HOW.
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:11 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,563,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Sorry, but I've never been able to force myself to listen to Kirk or Kroc Cameron or watch any of his "Left Behind" movies. We all have to draw the line somewhere. So any similarity was strictly coincidental. Peace
Peace indeed, but I still say thanks, as these Peanut butter proves God brainfrizzing ideas are still dangerously influential and any opportunity to debunk them is valuable.
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Old 05-29-2017, 05:27 PM
 
9,588 posts, read 5,015,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Peace indeed, but I still say thanks, as these Peanut butter proves God brainfrizzing ideas are still dangerously influential and any opportunity to debunk them is valuable.

Yeah, well I debunk the one resurrection and the rapture doctrine on a semi-regular basis. I could never understand how anyone could believe we were going to fly away in the first place, and say that with a straight face. So I dug in there myself, FOR myself. I guess because they saw Jesus go up in the clouds, that meant it was going to happen to us, too in exactly the same way???

A study on clouds, being raised up, ect. in the original language (Hebrew of course, a very PICTORAL idea/visual language unlike all others for the most part), took care of that. And shortly thereafter, my lesson in the left foot of fellowship followed, as I tried to share what I'd gleaned. I learned then another lesson, in that, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", can have two meanings. Hey, got to keep learning all the time or stagnate, right? Peace
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Old 05-29-2017, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,815,449 times
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
As for the eye-witness or two. Who? You cited....

Papias (A.D. 60-135).
Iranaeus (A.D. 120-202).
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-217).
Hippolytus (A.D. 170-236).
Tertullian (A.D. 145-221).
Origen (A.D. 185-254).
St. Jerome (342-420).
Ignatius of Antioch (35-100)
Dionysius of Corinth (d. 171)
Tertullian. (155–240 AD)

Looking at the dates they lived, perhaps you could explain how any of them could be eye-witnesses to the so called apostles.
Speak up Rbbi1 old beast. Don't be shy now.
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Old 05-30-2017, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
10,939 posts, read 5,909,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Geez...... ...

Here's my take on it. I don't care about it. Evolution doesn't negate anything for me. All that is in this realm, He created from the get go of there even BEING a realm that is not pure Spirit. So why would I care about evolution, as if that's some threat? The ONLY thing about it that is offensive and ridiculous to me, is the core idea that we came from apes.

....
Now why can't all Christians realize that?
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Old 05-30-2017, 04:18 AM
 
9,588 posts, read 5,015,088 times
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Speak up Rbbi1 old beast. Don't be shy now.

How about Papias and Ignatius? Other point being, they were not that far removed from the incidents as we are today. And "shy" is not one of my problems, old beast. Peace
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Old 05-30-2017, 05:57 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,082 posts, read 20,563,352 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
How about Papias and Ignatius? Other point being, they were not that far removed from the incidents as we are today. And "shy" is not one of my problems, old beast. Peace
I must say that one thing I'm sloppy on is the early church fathers and how reliable they are. It's not so much how close to the time they lived -though that helps if they were near contemporaries, but how likely they are to have access o reliable records, as distinct from just referring to the Bible.

Pneuma and I got into a bit of a wrangle about one of the church fathers referring to James, though by way of dating how early access to the works of Josephus was. But the point is that this is all reference to written records that we have now, so despite being centuries nearer the time, one can argue they are no more in the know than we are.

There was one - Jerome perhaps -who had the gospel of the Hebrews, which is now lost apart from bits he quoted in denouncing them. But there, you'd expect him to refer to what the apostles said if he had any reliable contact from them. So apart from that claim to know someone who claimed to be a disciple of someone who claimed to be John the apostle (and somehow that seems more like the 'John' who wrote the gospel than the son of Zebedee who was supposed to have been killed in Judea by Herod Agrippa) all the knowledge of the church fathers seem to be based on written records, and where not Bible material often to denounce them as Wrong.

Or there's the one who first came up with the '2nd census' idea (Tertullian, was that?). While it is implied that he knew there was a second census, it looks more like he knew no more than us and just came up with an explanation.

So it's like the historians who are quoted as attesting to Jesus. Under scrutiny, they turn out (if they are referring to Jesus at all) to be just discussing stuff which is in the gospels, so they have no more real authority on he matter than you or I.

As I say, I'm a bi foggy about all these claims. There was a debate on Clement - I think who was used to validate Philemon (a rather dubious epistle) by reference to sacrifices at the temple, implying it was written before the Jewish war. A bit thin to place such reliance on, and not really suggesting any insider knowledge of he matter.

So you may see why we are not bowled over by appeal to these early Church authorities.
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Old 05-30-2017, 07:10 AM
 
10,077 posts, read 5,703,508 times
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Some atheists really do a disservice to their cause when they try to argue atheism by attacking the Bible.

They dispute "facts" supposedly found in one book.

One LITTLE book!

That's no different than trying to argue for atheism by disputing "facts" found in the stories of Norse Mythology. And you are just as ineffective when you try to do that with the Bible.

It doesn't matter that a lot of people still believe in the Bible stories. There is zero effect in trying to argue reality based on the claims in the stories inside a book. Zero.

On the other hand, it's more difficult to defend atheism from a philosophical standpoint. You could not have won the argument with someone like Plato.

What do you think?
I wouldn't have a problem with atheists if their attitude and position was simply a case of disbelief due to lack of convincing evidence. However, a lot of them have this deeply rooted anger and desire to crush Christianity from society. Ironically, that level of venom against my faith only strengthens my faith because I can clearly see that Satan is behind it.
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