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The religious can just play the "God works in mysterious ways" card all day long, while claiming he healed their asthma and let other die.
This is an excellent point. As a philosopher, I've been in plenty of religious debates and what I've found is that, once you get down to the core details, the religious argument almost always boils down to some variation of "God works in mysterious ways." I am generally accused of hubris or narrow-mindedness for expecting rational arguments for the existence of God. God's mind is infinite and mine is very limited, so why should I expect God's Truth to be comprehensible to my meager brain? If God killed millions of people, including children and their puppy dogs, in a global flood, then God had a very good reason for doing it that way, and I am foolish if I expect that reason to seem rational to me. I, on the other hand, would say that if God really did that, then God is psychotic and/or has the mental/emotional development of a toddler. But, of course, I don't say that. What I say is: This Biblical story counts as one of many good reasons for believing that the Bible is not a good guide to history, and it is not always the best guide to understanding morality. And if I can't trust the Bible, then why should I believe in any "BibleGod" concept at all? There is still room for a more general concept of ID, but BibleGod is the worst sort of fiction - not even remotely believable to rational minds, unless the otherwise rational mind is preconditioned from childhood to feel at a gut level that this sort of thing is what "normal" "good" people believe.
This is an excellent point. As a philosopher, I've been in plenty of religious debates and what I've found is that, once you get down to the core details, the religious argument almost always boils down to some variation of "God works in mysterious ways." I am generally accused of hubris or narrow-mindedness for expecting rational arguments for the existence of God. God's mind is infinite and mine is very limited, so why should I expect God's Truth to be comprehensible to my meager brain? If God killed millions of people, including children and their puppy dogs, in a global flood, then God had a very good reason for doing it that way, and I am foolish if I expect that reason to seem rational to me. I, on the other hand, would say that if God really did that, then God is psychotic and/or has the mental/emotional development of a toddler. But, of course, I don't say that. What I say is: This Biblical story counts as one of many good reasons for believing that the Bible is not a good guide to history, and it is not always the best guide to understanding morality. And if I can't trust the Bible, then why should I believe in any "BibleGod" concept at all? There is still room for a more general concept of ID, but BibleGod is the worst sort of fiction - not even remotely believable to rational minds, unless the otherwise rational mind is preconditioned from childhood to feel at a gut level that this sort of thing is what "normal" "good" people believe.
Exactly, my friend.
For rational thinkers, "God works in mysterious ways" just isn't a good enough answer. I mean, these people believe that they know what God wants, and how to achieve it (Hence the reason they are part of whatever religion they are a part of), yet at the same time claim that we can't possibly know what God's goals, thoughts, wants, etc are. How can it be both ways?
I am with you 100% in the fact of God being a maniacal toddler if he drowned the whole world because he was mad at it. I mean, come on man, do people really believe that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the Earth at that time deserved to be drowned in a global flood? That they were all evil? Even the little babies? What kind of junk thinking is that, anyways???
As to your point on being preconditioned, I went to high school with a guy that was super smart. I mean smart on all levels, not just math and science. He ended up as our valedictorian. He took things like AP Biology and AP Chemistry and AP Earth Sciences, yet still somehow believed the Earth was only 6,000 years old and created by the Bible God. He did not believe in evolution or anything of the sort. He is now a minister at a local church. What was his background like, you may be thinking? His dad was a minister, and his mom was a stay at home who taught Bible studies in her spare time.
If that kid hadn't grown up in a household like that, he would probably be a scientist or Dr. right now. Instead, he works a couple days a week talking to people about a book....
Last edited by ImissThe90's; 06-14-2017 at 11:09 AM..
Reason: spelling
Because if someone denies the existence of spirit then they would not see a need to nourish the spirit
Because if someone considers it a psychiatric disorder in need of treatment like paranoid schizophrenia (as in the opening post) it shows they are not aware of spiritual care
Because they express hostility, derision, and disdain towards people and practices that do nourish the spirit.
And you are assuming that every atheist thinks exactly like the OP plus you are assuming that you know exactly what others define as spiritual. Are you assuming that an atheist must think exactly like the OP or close enough to it that you can make that judgement? There are many believers that hold a hostile and even hate for non believers. Does this mean that you and every believer must think that non believers live hopeless lives and are incapable of love, empathy and hope? Some religious folks have made that claim on this forum hence with your assumption you must agree totally with that.i
Beats me how an atheist handles a tragedy. There is no hope in atheism
What, exactly, would we be hoping for? That we spend eternity living on our knees, shackled in chains, an infinity of forevers passing by while in non-stop servitude to an authoritarian, dictatorial God that acts more like Kim Il-un than anyone else?
Just because we don't hope for your god and your religion doesn't mean atheists are bereft of hope. As I've said before, there's nothing about being an atheist that stops one from hoping there is a better "life" after we die.
I know most atheists believe we simply die and cease to exist. I don't necessarily believe that, though I have to admit that it's a likely possibility. But ... I can hope that they're wrong, that there is something worthwhile on the other side of the veil.
I certainly don't hope for eternal slavery in a gilded cage called Heaven -- a paradise that isn't even mine. For instance, it says there will be no night in Heaven. Well, I actually enjoy the night. Non-stop daylight would be boring. Except ... there won't be a sun or moon (says that specifically in the Bible) which means, I guess, the lighting in Heaven will be like ... I dunnae ... office lighting I suppose. Drab and boring.
I don't like the idea of what Revelations 7:15 says: "Therefore they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple."
Yay, we get to serve God day and night ... forever. And ever ... serving and ... serving and ... serving some more ... on and on, into an infinity of time so distant as to be wholly unimaginable. And even after a thousand Googol-plexes of years have passed, it will be as if that day is your first day, such is the nature of forever. And you'll *still* be serving. And serving. And ... yeah, you get the point.
But wait! Did you see what I just saw? I did!
Revelations says that we will be serving day and night.
Night?
Revelation 22:5 -- "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light ..."
A contradiction in the Bible? Wow, how ... novel. Who'd've ever thunk there would be a contradiction? In the same Book? Just two verses apart? Nah, of course not. Must be a missprint. No, I know! I'm taking it out of context!!! That's gotta be it.
So it will be daylight all the time -- and there won't be a sun. Just this weird God-Glow(tm) that lights up everything.
Revelations also says that if you're in Heaven and you thirst, you'll drink water! Yeah, water. Yum. First of all, why would I thirst in Heaven? Secondly, water? Is that it? That sounds more like a harsh prison sentence. What do I get to eat in Heaven? Bread?
At least it's not like the JWs who seem to think you still have to farm for your food, toiling day in and day out in the agricultural arts. What a way to spend eternity, busting your rump in the fields. But hey, at least the lions and lambs will be laying together. Heaven is wonderful! No more meat, right? Just ... vegetables, the worst tasting food on planet earth. I doubt brussel sprouts will taste like a steak in Heaven. They'll still taste like **** (I mean they'll taste like crap).
And what's with this business of streets being paved with gold? So what? People act as if gold will actually mean something in Heaven. It is interesting though reading this stuff because it shows you what a primitive desert dweller would get excited over -- water, of course, being in the desert. Gold. Sure, because it's valuable and pretty. No nighttime because people back then really feared the darkness.
And serving. Lots 'o serving. Get me a glass of water! Go pick up my dry cleaning! Clean out the cat's litter box! Mow the damn yard ... I don't care if it's an infinite yard, you have an infinity amount of time to finish it! Now move it before I start singing "Yakkity *** <--- why on earth is that word censored? What the ...? It means talking. It's a type of animal. It's even the name of an aircraft manufacturer in Russia (they produced the VTOL aircraft for the Kiev class cruiser-carrier hybrids). I really want to know why that is censored. I mean ... seriously.
Yeah ... I hope for a *real* paradise, not one dreamed up by someone else, and certainly not a "someone" from the desert in the Bronze Age.
What, exactly, would we be hoping for? That we spend eternity living on our knees, shackled in chains, an infinity of forevers passing by while in non-stop servitude to an authoritarian, dictatorial God that acts more like Kim Il-un than anyone else?
Just because we don't hope for your god and your religion doesn't mean atheists are bereft of hope. As I've said before, there's nothing about being an atheist that stops one from hoping there is a better "life" after we die.
I know most atheists believe we simply die and cease to exist. I don't necessarily believe that, though I have to admit that it's a likely possibility. But ... I can hope that they're wrong, that there is something worthwhile on the other side of the veil.
I certainly don't hope for eternal slavery in a gilded cage called Heaven -- a paradise that isn't even mine. For instance, it says there will be no night in Heaven. Well, I actually enjoy the night. Non-stop daylight would be boring. Except ... there won't be a sun or moon (says that specifically in the Bible) which means, I guess, the lighting in Heaven will be like ... I dunnae ... office lighting I suppose. Drab and boring.
I don't like the idea of what Revelations 7:15 says: "Therefore they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple."
Yay, we get to serve God day and night ... forever. And ever ... serving and ... serving and ... serving some more ... on and on, into an infinity of time so distant as to be wholly unimaginable. And even after a thousand Googol-plexes of years have passed, it will be as if that day is your first day, such is the nature of forever. And you'll *still* be serving. And serving. And ... yeah, you get the point.
But wait! Did you see what I just saw? I did!
Revelations says that we will be serving day and night.
Night?
Revelation 22:5 -- "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light ..."
A contradiction in the Bible? Wow, how ... novel. Who'd've ever thunk there would be a contradiction? In the same Book? Just two verses apart? Nah, of course not. Must be a missprint. No, I know! I'm taking it out of context!!! That's gotta be it.
So it will be daylight all the time -- and there won't be a sun. Just this weird God-Glow(tm) that lights up everything.
Revelations also says that if you're in Heaven and you thirst, you'll drink water! Yeah, water. Yum. First of all, why would I thirst in Heaven? Secondly, water? Is that it? That sounds more like a harsh prison sentence. What do I get to eat in Heaven? Bread?
At least it's not like the JWs who seem to think you still have to farm for your food, toiling day in and day out in the agricultural arts. What a way to spend eternity, busting your rump in the fields. But hey, at least the lions and lambs will be laying together. Heaven is wonderful! No more meat, right? Just ... vegetables, the worst tasting food on planet earth. I doubt brussel sprouts will taste like a steak in Heaven. They'll still taste like **** (I mean they'll taste like crap).
And what's with this business of streets being paved with gold? So what? People act as if gold will actually mean something in Heaven. It is interesting though reading this stuff because it shows you what a primitive desert dweller would get excited over -- water, of course, being in the desert. Gold. Sure, because it's valuable and pretty. No nighttime because people back then really feared the darkness.
And serving. Lots 'o serving. Get me a glass of water! Go pick up my dry cleaning! Clean out the cat's litter box! Mow the damn yard ... I don't care if it's an infinite yard, you have an infinity amount of time to finish it! Now move it before I start singing "Yakkity *** <--- why on earth is that word censored? What the ...? It means talking. It's a type of animal. It's even the name of an aircraft manufacturer in Russia (they produced the VTOL aircraft for the Kiev class cruiser-carrier hybrids). I really want to know why that is censored. I mean ... seriously.
Yeah ... I hope for a *real* paradise, not one dreamed up by someone else, and certainly not a "someone" from the desert in the Bronze Age.
Great post, too soon...
Agree with everything you said, even the part about why *** would be censored. The Heaven of the Bible sounds an awful lot like hell to me. I certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity worshipping and serving a God that will give me nothing more than water to drink! On another note, why would you even need water of food in Heaven??? You're already dead, and there is supposed to be no pain or death there, so why they need for sustenance at all??
*snicker* I thought it was funny -- even if I didn't agree with the context, per se.
Trump supporters have been listening to hate coming out of people's mouths since before Trump, the hate and insult we hear everyday is continuous, we just don't say anything. This ongoing violence from the left is rioting in the streets, burning cities, shooting cops, and the leaders get behind such rioters as if it were sane.
I was angry at 9-11, but today I am way angry, and to see these people on the left giving their condolences is outright disgusting when so much hate is practiced everywhere I go. I was sitting at the doctors office with my little girl and dude started talking about us, he that we should understand that we should hate ourselves.
This race baiting going on for years as if everyone in the Republican party is a white racist, we are all bigots, idiots, and the thing they get mad with the travel ban and borders is the same things Republicans and democrats praised the Clintons making speeches of doing the same thing.
If I wanted to talk about politics or get insulted by you or anyone else, I would go into politics.
There are enough people to laugh at in there.
The left is breeding anti-Americans who are violent and they support them, we wonder why people getting shot from the hysteria for hating us for the same things the Clintons did.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 06-14-2017 at 02:23 PM..
Here is an exactly one very large secular hospital that has quite a few chaplains on staff. Many people seek prayer and their faith in such environments to get through hard times. Beats me how an atheist handles a tragedy. There is no hope in atheism.
Ok, so you admit that your religion is about feeling better, and not about truth. That's fine...the placebo effect is real. But don't have the attitude that everyone one else is wrong / evil because they don't share your beliefs. Different people have different needs.
Here is an exactly one very large secular hospital that has quite a few chaplains on staff. Many people seek prayer and their faith in such environments to get through hard times. Beats me how an atheist handles a tragedy. There is no hope in atheism.
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