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It's me trying to help you while I'm able. I will do so until I'm unable to do so.
~ please listen, it's important to you.
Hush, I admire your willingness to go the extra mile to try to save someone. It's a lot of hard work and I know often results in failure and frustration. I just wanted you to know that I do appreciate your efforts even if at times it seems like I don't.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 08-21-2017 at 08:07 PM..
It's me trying to help you while I'm able. I will do so until I'm unable to do so.
~ please listen, it's important to you.
Well, we are 100 pages into this thread and we haven't seen any actual proof for Jesus. Do you have any proof? Until I see that, I don't see that I need the help you are offering.
As with thrillobyte, I understand that you are honestly trying to do something nice, that you view as vital. I simply don't believe what you do, and don't see any reason to do so.
It's me trying to help you while I'm able. I will do so until I'm unable to do so.
~ please listen, it's important to you.
When my son was about 12, he was invited to spend the night at his friend's house. During the middle of the night his friend woke him up tossing and turning. It turned out that his friend desperately need to use bathroom, but was afraid that the devil would get him if he got out of bed. My son had to walk the kid to the bathroom and back in the boy's OWN HOUSE, because the kid had been brainwashed into subscribing to a set of ancient superstitious childlike beliefs. There's no boogeyman in the dark hallway HW. You are old enough to be able to begin to think for yourself.
Notice that Christianity has been pushing the same nonsense for 2,000 years. Notice that the track record for accuracy of these ridiculous claims currently stands at zero for 2,000 years!
Notice that Christianity has been pushing the same nonsense for 2,000 years. Notice that the track record for accuracy of these ridiculous claims currently stands at zero for 2,000 years!
It's not just Christianiy -- all religions have been making unfulfilled promises for thousands of years. And let's not forget about all of the unfulfilled prophecies ... I'm looking at YOU, Jehova's Witnesses.
I've said this several times, but believing in religion, especially in place of science, is like betting your life savings on a horse that hasn't won a race in 100,000 years.
Betting that *your* specific religion is true while believing (knowing!) that all other religions are false is making that bet on a horse that has never won a race. What's even worse is that the religion you subscribe to has more to do with the luck of geography than any inherent Truth to be found in any of these religions.
So, not only are you betting on a horse that hasn't won a race since modern h-sapiens came into being, the only reason why you're so sure that your horse will win is because said horse came from the same home town as you did.
If you had been born elsewhere, you would almost certainly be betting on a completely different horse (even if that horse has never won a race, either).
It's not just Christianiy -- all religions have been making unfulfilled promises for thousands of years. And let's not forget about all of the unfulfilled prophecies ... I'm looking at YOU, Jehova's Witnesses.
I've said this several times, but believing in religion, especially in place of science, is like betting your life savings on a horse that hasn't won a race in 100,000 years.
Betting that *your* specific religion is true while believing (knowing!) that all other religions are false is making that bet on a horse that has never won a race. What's even worse is that the religion you subscribe to has more to do with the luck of geography than any inherent Truth to be found in any of these religions.
So, not only are you betting on a horse that hasn't won a race since modern h-sapiens came into being, the only reason why you're so sure that your horse will win is because said horse came from the same home town as you did.
If you had been born elsewhere, you would almost certainly be betting on a completely different horse (even if that horse has never won a race, either).
My grandmother fully believed that Jesus would return in her lifetime. Because her mother had told her so. But if she missed, certainly Jesus would return in the life time of her children. My grandmother died in 1957.
My aunt began carrying on a regular conversation with Jesus in her early 70's. He was right there in the room with her, although none of us could see him. One day she announced that, because she was his special beloved, Jesus had told her the time and date of his second coming. So one morning she and half of her church congregation sat out in the church parking lot in lawn chairs and waited to see Jesus return in glory from the sky which is angels. And of course Jesus stood her up. She said afterwards that she must have "misunderstood."
Six years ago my aunt passed at the age of ninety. She use to assure me when I was little that she would live to see the second coming. But if it didn't happen during her lifetime, it would certainly happen in mine.
The Bible says a lot of things that are flatly ridiculous. My personal favorite is Joshua's "Day the Earth Stood Still" tall tail (Joshua 10:12-13), since it would require the entire planet to stop rotating, and then to start rotating all over again. Believing that this actually occurred requires childlike gullibility. Next to this story flying reindeer are almost plausible.
You need an omnipotent God like I have---...With people this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible(Mt 19:26).
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But Joshua's "Day the Earth Stood Still" occurred in the OT. Many Christians are really only concerned with the NT. So from the NT we have Matthew's "Night of the Living Dead" tail (Matt. 27 52-53), whereby hordes of dead people came up out of their graves and wandered the streets of Jerusalem. At least none of THESE reanimated corpses were reported to have flown away, however.
Conservative Christians make the OT and the NT equal in authority. Embellishing the Scriptures only points to your extreem bias. That verse does not say "hordes." It says "many." Again all I need is an omnipotent God for this to be true.
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Stories such as these suggest that we should probably not, shall we say, take everything that the the Bible claims completely to heart. Which should have been obvious anyway, since they were written by ancient people who, being largely ignorant of how and why the universe works and exists, had a childlike view of reality.
If its in the Bible, there is no reason not to accept what it says. Man today, with all of his knowledge and gadgets still can't explain the universe and especially how it originated. You won't know who has a childlike view of reality until the fat lady sings and then it will be to late.
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And so the author of 1 John indicates that all we have to do is believe that Jesus came back to life and flew away and we can live forever.
Can you prove that is wrong? Let me help you out---NO!
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The author of the Book of Jonah claimed that Jonah rode around in the belly of a large fish for several days without being digested. The various authors of the Bible were simple ancient people who believed in things we can now see were ridiculous. We are not smarter than they were, but we reasonably should have become more knowledgeable and sophisticated over the thousands of years that separate us.
Again you embellish your remark hoping it will l give it more validity. It doesn't. The account says 3 days, and there is an actual event were that did occur if you care to google it. Current knowledge is built on the back of the intelligence of past generations. Those you consider ignorant were probably smarter than you are. Cain's sons originated farming, building, music and metallurgy(Gen 20-22). What have you invented?
You believe that a dog-like animal became a whale, a chicken became a dino and an ape became a man. So who has the most unbelievable beliefs?
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And so the Bible tells us that we can have eternal life. And yet what we actually observe is that all living things die. Without exception! Of course, according to believers, when we die an invisible part of us will go to an invisible place to be with invisible deities. Which is sort of the opposite of obvious.
In heaven God will not be invisible. What is obvious on earth will not be not be true in heaven.
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Do you know that superman was born on a planet which orbited a red star, which means that he has superpowers on earth because of earth's yellow star? And Peter Parker got spider powers because he was bitten by a radioactive spider? Or so the comic books tell us. Even as a kid I could tell the difference between what was real and what was make believe.
It is always very amusing when skeptics try to link what is known to be fiction with that which they can't prove is fiction. It makes you look foolish.
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But of course Christians will say, "Why take a chance? What is there to lose by believing?" And they could make the same case for believing in Santa Claus. The problem of course is that once one understands that Santa Claus and his team of flying reindeer is simply make believe, a person cannot simply choose to believe. Growing to a healthy adulthood should reasonably mean losing one's childlike gullibility.
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I am 69 years old, so this whole dying thing is a good deal more real to me than it was when I was young.
I am 85 so it may be more real to me than it is to you.
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Am I looking forward to dying? Well no, not really. But then I am still quite healthy and my brain is still mostly working. When I do finally start to break down, dying might not be such a bad option. And what I have noticed about dying is that the process of dying is something everyone has to go through regardless of what they convince themselves to believe. Lying to oneself that there is more on the other side of death might make that process more bearable for some I suppose. But I am not afraid of dying anyway. And what any of us chooses to believe while we are alive will be irrelevant once we no longer exist.
If what I believe is true, then what happens at death is far from irrelevant.
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Most Christians, like most Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, were indoctrinated into their beliefs by their parents. They started out in a condition of belief that began as very young children. Like the children of Zeus believers or Odin believers, etc., once were indoctrinated into the beliefs of their parents. Parents believe that it is their duty and their RIGHT to raise their children to be little carbon copies of themselves, just as they were raised to be.
I doubt if you can support most Christians were indoctrinated by their parents. I WAS NOT. Everyone is indoctrinated by something. You have been indoctrinated by humanism.
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One of the traits common to all religious beliefs is feeling of being touched by the divine among the devoted. I was raised Pentecostal, but my own indoctrination did not take. I have always been too pragmatic. I use to ask my aunts questions which shocked and alarmed them. And I was instructed to "never think such things." (The foremost of which was that it is not for us to question the Word of God.
If I was raised Pentecostal, I might be in the same boat you are in helping you row away from it as fast as we could. Conservative Christianity reject much of their theology. Not to question the word of God as not being true should be our theology. That is probably what they meant.
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Which, when you think about it, is really nothing more than classic brainwashing at work). Of course this only caused me to think my questions through on my own. By the time I was 13 I had reached the conclusion that Christianity is far too silly to be valid.
I came to that conclusion when I was 44. At that time I had decided never to go to church again. Then at 45, just in case, I ask God if He was real to reveal Himself to me. He did and I was converted.
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And at no time while I did believe, did any God ever make His presence known to me. But then, I have always been very resistent to actually believing make believe. Perhaps that is because, as a child, I played very involved make believe scenarios (cowboys, war and space were the most common. Also Tarzan. We had a big willow tree and tree house in my back yard) with my friends, and I always understood that there is a very distinct difference between make believe, and reality. I also eventually grew up.
When you can prove Christianity is make believe, get back to me with something more than a bias.
About ten years ago when my uncle passed, my aunt decided that his funeral would be a good place to save me for Jesus. She knows I am an atheist, although I never talk to her about it. The reason I never talk to her about it is because the things I would say to her would upset her terribly. So I just don't say them. None of this ever prevented her from taking jabs at me of course. Anyway at my uncle's funeral she asked me to let God come into my heart. Just trying to make her happy, I told her I would. She of course meant RIGHT THEN! At her insistence I got down on my knees, and, using the exact words she told me to say, I asked God to come into my heart. Apparently she expected me to pitch onto my face or at least have some sort of a physical reaction. She was genuinely surprised when nothing happened. It would happen, she declared, when I least expected it. Now my aunt has passed as well, and God has never once contacted me. He's had 69 years to give it his best shot. Apparently contact with God is exactly the same as belief in ghosts and demons. I am uttly protected by my lack of belief in such things.
You are commended for going through the motions you aunt ask you to do. She ask you to do that because she really love you and does not want you to end up in the hell she believe in. If what your aunt and other Christians believe is true, you are not protected from hell.
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I have read the entire Bible. My reason for reading it is because, given it's position of importance in the formation of western thought and history, one should not consider themselves to be truly educated unless they have read the Bible. I didn't begin with John though. I read it like any book, beginning with Genesis, and finishing with Revelation. It's not my favorite work of literature I must admit. Although it's not as boring as the BOM, which I have attempted to read several times and never managed to get through. And the portions of the Quran I have read are mostly just confusing, leaving me to wonder, "What did I just read?"
Instead of reading it, ask God too help you understand it.. Even Billy Graham can't understand the spiritual truth of the Bible unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to him.
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I have been informed by Christians numerous times over the years that no one can read the God's Word without being touched by it's power. At no point while I was reading the Bible did I feel any divine presence or power. My impression was that there are some very appalling things to be found in the Bible. And many claims that are just plain silly. Again, like believing in ghosts, apparently one must first believe in that stuff before that stuff becomes believable.
Your Christian friends are right. Non-believers can't understand spiritual truth and what seems appalling and silly can be explained but not to non-believers.
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Your Christian friends are right. Non-believers can't understand spiritual truth and what seems appalling and silly can be explained but not to non-believers.
Seems like a catch-22. You must believe it to understand it so you can believe it.
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