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This sums up my position. It is based upon only what is known, and what is reasonable:
I view "God" from a Pantheist perspective (ALL THE ENERGY MATTER THAT EXISTS AND HAS EXISTED...aka The Universe).
The God I perceive...ALL THE ENERGY/MATTER THAT EXISTS AND HAS EXISTED (The Universe)...has all the attributes definitive of a God Entity...and thus IS GOD.
We KNOW:
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, has rearranged itself so as to produce everything that has ever existed in Reality...from the smallest particle to the biggest Galaxy.---SOURCE/CREATOR 100%
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, possess knowledge of all that is known at any given time.---ALL KNOWING 100%
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, occupies all places in Reality.---ALL PRESENT 100%
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, accounts for all the energy and force that exists in, acts upon, and controls, Reality.---ALL POWERFUL 100%
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, is capable of all the seeing that has ever occured. ---ALL SEEING 100%
I could go on...but these are the attributes known to be definitive, demonstrative, and indicative of a God Entity.
Religions use metaphorical and allegorical characters and stories to describe all of this.
THE UNIVERSE is as "Godly" as it gets...from ANY reasonable assessment.
We DO KNOW that the ENERGY/MATTER that DOES IN FACT EXIST...rearranges itself so as to create all Reality, and can do this through indigenous power, without assistance or accomplice from any other force...."controls" that which is created by and through "laws" and "processes", that we do IN FACT know to exist...and also maintains and sustains or eliminates that which has been created by it.
We also know that these are the attributes known to define a "God".
Regardless of what ever anyone wants to call the KNOWN, EXISTING ENERGY/MATTER...it is, by its KNOWN ATTRIBUTES, definitively a God.
It doesn't matter whether this creation, control, and maintaining/sustaining, and eliminating happened out of what some believe to be "chaos", and organized itself by "random chance"...it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that that has happened, and is still happening.
It also doesn't matter if this ENERGY/MATTER was never itself "sourced", has always existed, and was never itself created (or is a "multiverse")....it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that it DOES EXIST...AND...by its KNOWN ATTRIBUTES (as opposed to "assigned attributes")...is definitively a God...without it existing in any other state than just the way it is, and has been known to be.
THIS is the evidence that "God Exists" that everyone asks for.
But by refusing to acknowledge the merited title, and insisting that the only reference is by name only ("Nature", "The Universe", etc) to identify that which has been shown to be, by known attributes and definition, a "God" entity....some then turn around and deny the existence of GOD.
No matter..."GOD" by any name is still "GOD".
You're saying that the universe of matter/energy that we exist in is itself sentient. And that's a possibility. Humans are composed of matter/energy and humans are sentient. The problem with this claim is establishing evidence for it. All investigation so far has indicated that all change occurs because of quantum mechanics at work, and everything that occurs does so for entirely natural reasons. So unless you have some hard evidence that the universe itself is sentient, this is simply another imaginary state of mind. Like proclaiming that God exists invisibly in an invisible realm and occasionally toys with humans like a kid with a magnifying glass and nothing better to do.
You're saying that the universe of matter/energy that we exist in is itself sentient. And that's a possibility. Humans are composed of matter/energy and humans are sentient. The problem with this claim is establishing evidence for it. All investigation so far has indicated that all change occurs because of quantum mechanics at work, and everything that occurs does so for entirely natural reasons. So unless you have some hard evidence that the universe itself is sentient, this is simply another imaginary state of mind. Like proclaiming that God exists invisibly in an invisible realm and occasionally toys with humans like a kid with a magnifying glass and nothing better to do.
Within that which comprises "GOD" (ALL/THE UNIVERSE) there is sentience...so it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent.
ANALOGY: A typical person is physically comprised of an eye system that interacts with the brain to produce vision to some degree. Even though it is just part of what comprises you that makes this process of "seeing"...it is now reasonable to say that you, in total, are a "seeing" entity.
OTOH...All That Exists/The Universe did not and does not need to be "sentient" to be the "Creator of All Reality" (one of the main attributes known to define a God Entity)...because it is known to have done that, and continues to do it, regardless.
It has nothing to do with my "state of mind". We have known, expert provided definitions for the title "God"..."The Universe/All That Exists" comports with said definitions. The Universe objectively, unequivocally, and irrefutably exists. THUS: God Exists.
Within that which comprises "GOD" (ALL/THE UNIVERSE) there is sentience...so it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent.
ANALOGY: A typical person is physically comprised of an eye system that interacts with the brain to produce vision to some degree. Even though it is just part of what comprises you that makes this process of "seeing"...it is now reasonable to say that you, in total, are a "seeing" entity.
OTOH...All That Exists/The Universe did not and does not need to be "sentient" to be the "Creator of All Reality" (one of the main attributes known to define a God Entity)...because it is known to have done that, and continues to do it, regardless.
It has nothing to do with my "state of mind". We have known, expert provided definitions for the title "God"..."The Universe/All That Exists" comports with said definitions. The Universe objectively, unequivocally, and irrefutably exists. THUS: God Exists.
The universe exists unequivocally. Thus have we established unequivocally that the universe exists (At least for the sake of this particular discussion). Unequivocally. What we have NOT established is that the universe itself is sentient. The material universe is composed of protons, neutrons and electrons. Humans are composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Humans are sentient. Things composed of protons neutrons and electrons are capable of being sentient. Rocks are also composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Rocks are NOT sentient. Protons neutrons and electrons are interchangeable. The very same protons neutrons and electrons that make up humans also once made up rocks. Things are not necessarily sentient because they happen to be composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Nor are things necessarily true simply because someone has conceived of a notion, and then declared it to be valid.
Spot on. The Nub is that the universe has to be sentient to be "God". And atheism is valid until Goldie produces good reason to think it is. The evasion about "it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent." simoly leaves him in the same position.
I told him this at the outset and several times since, and he tried that "..sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent." evasion to try to say that the universe was intelligent but not so as he was obliged to prove it. But as we see, he keeps on with the same stuff, and tries to force the God -label onto us using other parameters (it created us. It is huge) rather than address the Nub.
This is absolutely the same idea that Mystic peddles, except Mystic accepts that the Cosmos has to be intelligent (but doesn't validate that any more than Goldie does) but Goldie doesn't sem to think that he is being fed the Inspired Truth by this electron, bugs and air -pollution intelligence through divine revelation. I'll give Goldie that much - his brain is still very much anchored to the world.i
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-06-2017 at 01:25 PM..
The universe exists unequivocally. Thus have we established unequivocally that the universe exists (At least for the sake of this particular discussion). Unequivocally. What we have NOT established is that the universe itself is sentient. The material universe is composed of protons, neutrons and electrons. Humans are composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Humans are sentient. Things composed of protons neutrons and electrons are capable of being sentient. Rocks are also composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Rocks are NOT sentient. Protons neutrons and electrons are interchangeable. The very same protons neutrons and electrons that make up humans also once made up rocks. Things are not necessarily sentient because they happen to be composed of protons neutrons and electrons. Nor are things necessarily true simply because someone has conceived of a notion, and then declared it to be valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Spot on. The Nub is that the universe has to be sentient to be "God". And atheism is valid until Goldie produces good reason to think it is. The evasion about "it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent." simoly leaves him in the same position.
I told him this at the outset and several times since, and he tried that "..sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent." evasion to try to say that the universe was intelligennt but not so as he ws obliged to prove it. But as we see, he keeps on with the same stuff, and tries to force the God -label onto us using other parameters (it created us. It is huge) rather than address the Nub.
This is absolutely the same idea that Mystic peddles, except Mystic accepts that the Cosmos has to be intelligent (but doersn't validate that any more than Goldie does) but Goldie doesn't sem to think that he is being fed the Inspired Truth by this electron, bugs and air -pollution intelligence through divine revelation. I'll give Goldie that much - his brain is still very much anchored to the world.i
It is not a requirement that an entity be sentient to comport definitively with the title "G-O-D".
That is just your personal opinions...which means squat.
If it is...PROVE your "sentence requirement"...and back it up with facts that substantiate that.
I CAN (and have many times) substantiate my claim. Do you need it again?
I'm going by known definitions and facts, and applying logic and reason. And I have proved that many times on this board.
Y'all have NEVER done that. It is y'all that have "notions you think are true".
It is not a requirement that an entity be sentient to comport definitively with the title "G-O-D".
That is just your personal opinions...which means squat.
If it is...PROVE your "sentence requirement"...and back it up with facts that substantiate that.
I CAN (and have many times) substantiate my claim. Do you need it again?
I'm going by known definitions and facts, and applying logic and reason. And I have proved that many times on this board.
Y'all have NEVER done that. It is y'all that have "notions you think are true".
You twister. You may not remember what you posted, but I do.
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, possess knowledge of all that is known at any given time.---ALL KNOWING 100%
"GOD" (ALL/THE UNIVERSE) there is sentience...so it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent.
If that means you claim the Universe is intelligence, prove it.
If you say it isn't, then we are justified in calling it "Nature" not "God". If you try to balance on two stools at once without putting weight on either of them you will just look like a dictionary definition of "evasiveness".
You twister. You may not remember what you posted, but I do.
~~THE UNIVERSE and that which comprises it, possess knowledge of all that is known at any given time.---ALL KNOWING 100%
"GOD" (ALL/THE UNIVERSE) there is sentience...so it is reasonable to claim GOD (ALL) is sentient. To the degree that which comprises it is sentient/intelligent.
If that means you claim the Universe is intelligence, prove it.
If you say it isn't, then we are justified in calling it "Nature" not "God". If you try to balance on two stools at once without putting weight on either of them you will just look like a dictionary definition of "evasiveness".
This is where you always get it wrong TRAWK...even though I have explained it many times.
Noting what it is...doesn't then mean that's a requirement to comport definitively with the title.
THE UNIVERSE/ALL THAT EXISTS was GOD before there were sentient entities.
For the benefit of Tired of the Nonsense, who responded to you..(because I already sussed you)...why is the universe "God" before sentient beings existed? In you theory, was it or was it not sentient in itself?
It is not a requirement that an entity be sentient to comport definitively with the title "G-O-D".
That is just your personal opinions...which means squat.
If it is...PROVE your "sentence requirement"...and back it up with facts that substantiate that.
I CAN (and have many times) substantiate my claim. Do you need it again?
I'm going by known definitions and facts, and applying logic and reason. And I have proved that many times on this board.
Y'all have NEVER done that. It is y'all that have "notions you think are true".
As long as we are being silly.
This is sewage overflow. It is the material from which the vile Golgothan (crap demon - Dogma) was formed. It is also made up of the same protons, neutrons and electrons that form the universe. Worship it for the mighty entity that it represents. Communion might even be appropriate. If you are into that sort of thing.
Ah yes. As a kid I recall some smartarse kid asking (when the precher said God was everywhere) whether God was in turds. He was slapped down for being disrespectful, but in fact he had shown up the pretentious flatulence of the Theistic claim and the response was good old theistic bullying and intimidation.
That a 10 year old kid can make a schoolteacher look stupid and indeed intellectually dishonest may explain why we are winning the debate. Clever - really smart -people are trying to make a case for an utterly foolish faith -claim.
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i
You twister. You may not remember what you posted, but I do.
Ah yes. As a kid I recall some smartarse kid asking (when the precher said God was everywhere) whether God was in turds. He was slapped down for being disrespectful, but in fact he had shown up the pretentious flatulence of the Theistic claim and the response was good old theistic bullying and intimidation.
