Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But some argue for their religion based purely on faith and freely admit that they do lack evidence or proof and therefore do not claim to have any proof. You can dismiss a belief based on faith however to me they at much more honest than all those who not only claim that theirs is the true religion but then make the claims that there is proof for their religion. For some having religion does make them feel good, the same as owning a cat or taking a walk in nature. I would not lump the Kaspur of the world with the Jeff. If they wish to impose their religion onto the lives of others or attack science, the environment or other groups through their religion yes I agree with you but those that view it as a personal aspect of their life then why attack their faith? When I use to work there was a coworker I would go on a noon time walk with and we would chat. One day he mentioned that after work he had to go stack chairs at his church. Another coworker mentioned to me someone I knew had joined their church to sing in the choir. Those are the types of religious people I encounter in my life, not the anti evolution, anti atheists and pro forcing others to hear prays type.
I do not like it when a religious person tells me that I believe that there can be no God and I try not to force my non belief onto what I think a believer thinks. If someone tells me that they belief based on faith alone I have no problem partly cause those are usually the same people who do not try to force their religion onto others. But those that claim they have proof are often the same folks who are anti choice, tell me I cannot have morals or want Creationism taught in schools. Those I will argue with, not the faith based personal ones. Many of those folks here are very nice and present the good sides of humans. I will not mock them or put them down.
I know. There are all kinds. But it comes down to this. I am pushing against the influence of organized religion on society. Not the organized religion itself or those who believe it or join just for community.
Not until they sign onto the Christian soldiers' parachute and sniper corps who try to combat the arguments for a secular society.
That means anyone who pops up making any kind of case that supports or can be used to support the false claims of religion. Whether it is a case for first cause which, as we know is used as support for a personal Abrahamic God, or whether it is anti -evolution, because that can be used to try to validate Genesis through the back -door, or for The Bible of moral grounds or Spirit feelings, Inspiration claims or It helped them to give up wanking - anything that is materiel for the forces of Mordor (there, I've said It ) and anything that isn't going to harm us and may even help by being a Good Bad example, I leave alone.
There are People in this world who don't like the teachings of Jesus and of Paul.
They will say and do anything to make others feel the same.
They do so because it goes AGAINST them and they don't like the way it makes them feel inside.
It's a spiritual battle at it's root, yes. I've always maintained this controversy could be over if G-d would just open their spiritual eyes for 5 minutes and let them see the true reality of things. That's what He did for me and I RAN to Him. "Teach me your ways Father, cause I'm making a mess of it on my own, and now I see why." Peace
Exactly. One wonder why the fundamentalists hang out here to have their faith tested. They certainly cannot have any hopes or expectations of convincing us they are right based on the complete lack of evidence they provide. Perhaps they expect that if they pray hard enough the Holy Spirit will overshadow us and make us believers in Jesus. Not going to happen.
One reason is because we read secular, they don't. My studies have convinced me based on the complete lack of evidence that
1. 100's of Galileans named Yeshua lived in Palestine circa 0-50 CE. Many of them died by crucifixion for sedition, thievery and a few other crimes. They rotted on the cross and were thrown into a common grave and covered over.
2. there were no 12 apostles. There's not a single reference to them in the secular literature. 12 in Hebrew gemantria is a reference to many things i.e. the 12 constellations, the 12 twelve sons of Jacob so naturally the number of the apostles would be 12. But they never existed. They were made up by the gospel writers.
3. there was no "Saul" of Tarsus who later became "Paul". It's all made up because there isn't a single mention of him in contemporary history writings or Roman records of the time nor was his execution ever recorded, same as Peter. He simply did not exist despite supposedly being nearly as famous as Jesus.
In the vast expanse of 250 years during which Christianity gestated, first it was a mystery religion
Anyone who seriously studies the early history of Christianity would clearly be made aware that they have been fed a lie by the church.
It wasn't Jesus the Son of God who died for our sins, it wasn't Paul carrying the gospel message to the Mediterranean. It wasn't MMLJ who wrote the gospels shortly after Jesus died.
None of this is true.
It was Jews trying to break off of Judaism and start their own religion after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE when their whole culture had been shocked into a deep coma. Starting a whole new religion was their way of coping with the loss of their nation and identity. Along the way myths grew around a figure that gradually, through syncretism merged theirs with other pagan religions. This new religion gradually began to coalesce into the earliest forms of Christianities (plural) and the worship of a dying/rising Sun of God modeled after many of the dying/rising gods of the time i.e. Mithra, Attis, Dionysius, and Osirus. The god they chose for their new religion was named Hesus Kristos. The evolutionary principle at work here allowed this new religion to evolve into what Constantine legalized and made the official religion of the empire in 434 CE.
It's all there in the historical record. The official "history" we've been fed is mythology. It cannot be found in the historical record.
Wow, you're funny. The JEWS started Christianity? Now that's a new one. Why don't you go over to the Judaism forum and run that one up the flag pole and see who salutes it? Come on, chicken? LOL Peace
Exactly. One wonder why the fundamentalists hang out here to have their faith tested. They certainly cannot have any hopes or expectations of convincing us they are right based on the complete lack of evidence they provide. Perhaps they expect that if they pray hard enough the Holy Spirit will overshadow us and make us believers in Jesus. Not going to happen.
One reason is because we read secular, they don't. My studies have convinced me based on the complete lack of evidence that
1. 100's of Galileans named Yeshua lived in Palestine circa 0-50 CE. Many of them died by crucifixion for sedition, thievery and a few other crimes. They rotted on the cross and were thrown into a common grave and covered over.
2. there were no 12 apostles. There's not a single reference to them in the secular literature. 12 in Hebrew gemantria is a reference to many things i.e. the 12 constellations, the 12 twelve sons of Jacob so naturally the number of the apostles would be 12. But they never existed. They were made up by the gospel writers.
3. there was no "Saul" of Tarsus who later became "Paul". It's all made up because there isn't a single mention of him in contemporary history writings or Roman records of the time nor was his execution ever recorded, same as Peter. He simply did not exist despite supposedly being nearly as famous as Jesus.
In the vast expanse of 250 years during which Christianity gestated, first it was a mystery religion
Blood, Gender, and Power in Judaism and Christianity
Anyone who seriously studies the early history of Christianity would clearly be made aware that they have been fed a lie by the church.
It wasn't Jesus the Son of God who died for our sins, it wasn't Paul carrying the gospel message to the Mediterranean. It wasn't MMLJ who wrote the gospels shortly after Jesus died.
None of this is true.
It was Jews trying to break off of Judaism and start their own religion after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE when their whole culture had been shocked into a deep coma. Starting a whole new religion was their way of coping with the loss of their nation and identity. Along the way myths grew around a figure that gradually, through syncretism merged theirs with other pagan religions. This new religion gradually began to coalesce into the earliest forms of Christianities (plural) and the worship of a dying/rising Sun of God modeled after many of the dying/rising gods of the time i.e. Mithra, Attis, Dionysius, and Osirus. The god they chose for their new religion was named Hesus Kristos. The evolutionary principle at work here allowed this new religion to evolve into what Constantine legalized and made the official religion of the empire in 434 CE.
It's all there in the historical record. The official "history" we've been fed is mythology. It cannot be found in the historical record.
TRANSPONDER REPLIED:
Quote:
Interesting idea. But I have a hard time buying it. If the Jews were shaken up that much, they'd simply give up their religion and take on one of the other religions, and you could probably expect that it would keep all the bad habits like circumcision and Kosher food and invent one where God was the enemy and the messiah whoever he was, was simply a man who gets killed, like the rest of the Zealots.
Damn - they'd have invented Islam.
If I were to look for an alternative, I'd opt for a Greek associate Jew who liked the Jewish God but couldn't be doing with all that ritual stuff, so just have 'Ghost Judaism" where you pick the bits that suit you and ignore the rest.
Damn again, that's pretty much what we had - though Paul claims to be a Jew. Mind, he is a Roman first and a Jew second.
I'm going to try to get you to buy the idea, Trans. I never said ALL the Jews gravitated to this new mystery religion. Lots of them kept to their original one. But let's say for the sake of simplicity that it was a 50/50 split. So the traditional Jews kept their Old Testament laws of Kosher while the breakaways lost total faith in Yahweh because he could not protect their beloved temple or their nation. So they figured they'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain by instituting a new religion complete with a new dying/rising god of their own--one that belonged exclusively to them alone. I mean they had these teachings of some itinerant Jewish Apocalyptic preacher preaching that the kingdom of God is come among you, that the Kingdom of God is to be found within you, within your heart not out in the world and all this other spooky mysterious cryptic stuff that had been floating around for decades. This stuff is so incomprehensible to the ear on first hearing it was absolutely tailor-made for a funky new religion that nobody but they could understand. That's what mystery religions do. It's like a secret language that only they can interpret. Tailor-made.
That's where syncretism comes in. It's too hard to invent a new religion from scratch. You have to borrow from this religion and that religion and then mix it all together and voila, out comes Christianity. It has the virgin birth, the death on the cross on a high hill, the turning of water into wine--in fact Jesus has 18 of the 22 characteristics of the Rank-Raglan mythotype that typify the hero god who dies and then rises.
Quote:
Otto Rank, in 1909, developed a Hero pattern on that was very much based on Oedipus's legend, followed Freudian psychoanalytic thought in that the pattern lingered on the Hero's relations with the parents and was limited to the first half of the life of the Hero:[2]
Child of distinguished parents
Father is a king
Difficulty in conception
Prophecy warning against birth
Hero surrendered to the water in a box
Saved by animals or lowly people
Suckled by female animal or humble woman
Hero grows up
Hero finds distinguished parents
Hero takes revenge on the father
Acknowledged by people
Achieves rank and honors
Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions, following myth-ritualists Mother is a royal virgin Father is a king
Father often a near relative to mother Unusual conception Hero reputed to be son of god Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather Hero spirited away as a child Reared by foster parents in a far country No details of childhood Returns or goes to future kingdom
Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor) Becomes king
For a time he reigns uneventfully He prescribes laws Later loses favor with gods or his subjects (the Jewish people) Driven from throne and city (to Calvary outside Jerusalem) Meets with mysterious death Often at the top of a hill
His children, if any, do not succeed him His body is not buried Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
Now here's the payoff EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD READ THIS NEXT PART:
Quote:
When Raglan's 22 point outline is used, a Hero's tradition is considered more likely to be mythical the more of these traits they hold (a point is added per trait). Raglan himself scored the following Heroes: Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), >>Jesus (18) << Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points), Dionysos (19 points), Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points), Joseph (12 points), Moses (20 points), Elijah (9 points), Watu Gunung (18 points), Nyikang (14 points), Sigurd (11 points), Llew Llawgyffes (17 points), King Arthur (19 points), Robin Hood (13 points), Alexander the Great (7 points).[2]
I hope Christians here read that and see just exactly how many of these mythical hero characteristics fit Jesus' life to a tee. I mean if that doesn't convince them the Jesus of the gospels is a devised legend based on other gods I don't know what will.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-23-2017 at 04:12 PM..
What is in the vat is best left to the imagination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
The clue is in 'GldnRain' my dear old pie crust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Ha! .
You two have always had minds that work along those lines.
I've made some money presenting that as "performance art". It's a limited market...but way more than you'd think. The two of you included, I'm sure.
I bet the Saul version of Paul dug it...those Roman citizens (My ancestry. I'm even named Paul!) were freaks!
Who knows?...I may be related to the guy.
I'm going to try to get you to buy the idea, Trans. I never said ALL the Jews gravitated to this new mystery religion. Lots of them kept to their original one. But let's say for the sake of simplicity that it was a 50/50 split. So the traditional Jews kept their Old Testament laws of Kosher while the breakaways lost total faith in Yahweh because he could not protect their beloved temple or their nation. So they figured they'd have nothing to lose and everything to gain by instituting a new religion complete with a new dying/rising god of their own--one that belonged exclusively to them alone. I mean they had these teachings of some itinerant Jewish Apocalyptic preacher preaching that the kingdom of God is come among you, that the Kingdom of God is to be found within you, within your heart not out in the world and all this other spooky mysterious cryptic stuff that had been floating around for decades. This stuff is so incomprehensible to the ear on first hearing it was absolutely tailor-made for a funky new religion that nobody but they could understand. That's what mystery religions do. It's like a secret language that only they can interpret. Tailor-made.
That's where syncretism comes in. It's too hard to invent a new religion from scratch. You have to borrow from this religion and that religion and then mix it all together and voila, out comes Christianity. It has the virgin birth, the death on the cross on a high hill, the turning of water into wine--in fact Jesus has 18 of the 22 characteristics of the Rank-Raglan mythotype that typify the hero god who dies and then rises.
Now here's the payoff EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD READ THIS NEXT PART:
I hope Christians here read that and see just exactly how many of these mythical hero characteristics fit Jesus' life to a tee. I mean if that doesn't convince them the Jesus of the gospels is a devised legend based on other gods I don't know what will.
Yes, I get all that. Of course I didn't suppose that you suggested all the Jews took up with the new religion. I was just trying to work out how likely it was they'd come up with that one. I'll keep thinking about it.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) and anything that isn't going to harm us and may even help by being a Good Bad example, I leave alone.
"You'll pray fe me? Ok, I'll Think for you."
.
I've always maintained this controversy could be over if G-d would just open their spiritual eyes for 5 minutes and let them see the true reality of things. That's what He did for me and I RAN to Him. "Teach me your ways Father, cause I'm making a mess of it on my own, and now I see why." Peace
Peace
