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Speculation. You do NOT know exactly what happened. Seriously, you think that many people were able to carry out the hoax you propose? That's ludicrous!
I have been citing chapter and verse. That is hardly speculation. My only "speculation" is pointing out that a corpse is not likely to return to life and fly away. But that is not speculation. It's based on all common observation concerning the nature of corpses and the nature of controlled flight. Spreading unconfirmable stories that something occurred which defies all common experience and common sense, THAT is a rumor by definition.
rumor
[roo-mer]
noun
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts:
2. gossip; hearsay: Rumor | Define Rumor at Dictionary.com
Gee, Tired, I have exp'd way more amazing things than someone
manifesting their body after death and, also, dematerializing later.
I can't prove any of it.
But, i've learned it's sure easier to only speak about that stuff
with others that have also exp'd amazing things....people think you're nuts otherwise.
Words from the Bible are not proof, I agree.
I have been citing chapter and verse. That is hardly speculation. My only "speculation" is pointing out that a corpse is not likely to return to life and fly away. But that is not speculation. It's based on all common observation concerning the nature of corpses and the nature of controlled flight. Spreading unconfirmable stories that something occurred which defies all common experience and common sense, THAT is a rumor by definition.
rumor
[roo-mer]
noun
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts:
2. gossip; hearsay: Rumor | Define Rumor at Dictionary.com
And all those people agreed on the hoax? For what purpose?
Gee, Tired, I have exp'd way more amazing things than someone
manifesting their body after death and, also, dematerializing later.
I can't prove any of it.
But, i've learned it's sure easier to only speak about that stuff
with others that have also exp'd amazing things....people think you're nuts otherwise.
Words from the Bible are not proof, I agree.
When written by several different persons over ~1000 years, all pointing toward Jesus, yeah maybe we can believe scripture.
And all those people agreed on the hoax? For what purpose?
Matthew 27:64 gives us a perfectly clear motive. The disciples wanted to relocate the body of Jesus for the purpose of spreading the rumor that he had returned from the dead. Jesus had died in the most degraded manner possible for a Jew. "He that is hanged is accursed of God" (Deut.21:23) Since being restored to life could ONLY be regarded as a clear act of God Himself, not only was Jesus clearly NOT the "accursed of God," he was clearly one of God's special chosen emissaries. The story of the "risen Christ" would serve to completely undo all that the priests had intended through the degraded and ignominious way Jesus had been put to death. If enough people could be convinced, the story would also serve to restore some very serious weight of credibility to the movement that Jesus had begun, and which the disciples would now inherit and attempt to carry on with. A crucified Jesus literally represents a dead end. The story of the "risen Christ" on the other hand provides a basis of an entirely new imperative, not to mention a very powerful and compelling passion story. A story that makes for great and dramatic story telling. It in fact proved to be a brilliant move which served to completely reverse all that the Jewish priests had intended. And since it ultimately managed to evolve into one of the world's great religions, it worked far better then the apostles and early followers of Jesus could ever have possibly imagined.
Here's my question regarding your request, if you don't mind: Why does it matter to you?
And that is a genuine question. Is it because you've been told that if you do NOT believe it, there will be dire consequences? If so, does that make any sense to you whatsoever? Because IF that were true, and God really would punish people for eternity because they didn't believe something that cannot be proven (and I think you know full well that it can't), wouldn't such a God be the antithesis of any rational person's understanding of what is good, and wouldn't spending an ETERNITY "worshipping" such a God be torment in itself for you? I know it would for me.
So, can we safely discard that as a valid motivation for wanting to have someone establish the resurrection of Jesus as reasonable? It wouldn't serve the intended purpose of some Christians for us, regardless.
Your question cannot be proven to a non-believer like you or me one way or another. But, those who believe it have their own personal reasons for doing so. Do you begrudge them that?
It isn't really so much that specific request "matters".
It is bashing and insulting those with a differing view (Christians, specifically) that matters to these kinda people.
This line of questioning helps to accomplish that.
And who saw the risen man fly off up into the sky. His disciples and ONLY his disciples. But I do agree with you on one point. This was the beginning of what we now know as Christianity.
Now if I have a circle of 12 friends and I say "Jesus appeared to us" but funny enough, he didn't appear to anybody else, are you seriously going to believe Jesus actually appeared to us?
Better, I say "I have 12 friends and Jesus appeared to us" but you watch me for a month and see that everyday I get up, go to work, and then go home every night are you seriously going to believe I even have 12 friends, much less Jesus actually appeared to us?
Best, I write a book 25 years from now saying that back in 2017 Jesus appeared to me and 12 of my friends are you seriously going to buy my book, much less believe believe Jesus actually appeared to us?
jimmij and Baptistfundie will. Ahhh, that's what Benny Hinn loves about Christianity. There's 1000 born every minute who will plop down $20 to buy his garbage book and make him a millionaire.
It isn't really so much that specific request "matters".
It is bashing and insulting those with a differing view (Christians, specifically) that matters to these kinda people.
This line of questioning helps to accomplish that.
But that's what this forum is for--a place where all religions and non-religions can come together and hash it out. If you want good clean fun with no conflicts, Rule, you should hang out in the newly-renovated Christian forum. That's what it's there for.
Now if I have a circle of 12 friends and I say "Jesus appeared to us" but funny enough, he didn't appear to anybody else, are you seriously going to believe Jesus actually appeared to us?
Better, I say "I have 12 friends and Jesus appeared to us" but you watch me for a month and see that everyday I get up, go to work, and then go home every night are you seriously going to believe I even have 12 friends, much less Jesus actually appeared to us?
Best, I write a book 25 years from now saying that back in 2017 Jesus appeared to me and 12 of my friends are you seriously going to buy my book, much less believe believe Jesus actually appeared to us?
The compiled biblical writings describe how our SPIRITUAL understanding of God evolved, Thrill. The historicity of any of it is irrelevant. There can be no legitimate question whatsoever that the evolution of our understanding has been impacted by these people and what is attributed to them in real and tangible ways over millennia. Understand, my friend, that the SPIRITUAL is entirely about what is IN OUR MINDS, NOT what is in the historical or archeological records. To emphasize my theistic point, God is concerned entirely with what is in our minds, NOT in the Carnal world. Carnally minded people have great difficulty understanding this and anything Spiritual. As long as your quest remains one of historical and archeological interest and NOT Spiritual, you will remain carnally minded and NOT spiritually minded.
And yet Peter, who walked with Jesus, confirmed Paul as an Apostle of Christ.
What I meant was, they ran from authorities and assumed Jesus was dead and gone forever. The gig was up.
And yet Peter, who (purportedly) walked with Jesus, (purportedly) denied him.
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