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Muslims all over the world when they perform the prayer they direct their faces to the house of Allah in the holy city in Makkah
and all mosques every where are directed there .
the great mosque of Sanaa in Yemen was built in the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)
and the distance between Sanaa and Makkah are more than 800 KM
and it is impossible to calculate the correct angle of the mosque to face Makkah without any modern tools ,
in other word to draw a straight line from a certain point in Sanaa in Yemen and should reach the center of Makkah .
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) calculated the correct angle.
Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: The Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said to me,
“If you build the mosque of Sana'a, make it to the right of a mountain called Deyn.”
Al-Hafez Al-Rahzey says in his book “The History of Sana'a”:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) ordered Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Ansari when he sent him to Sana’a to be its protector saying
“Call them to Iman (faith to verify the truth).
If they obey you in that then, legislate the Salah (prayers).
If they obey you in that, then go and build the Mosque in Bathan Park,
from where is found a rock in Gamdan
and face it to a mountain called Deyn.”
But that does you no good at all. If I am correct about the 'prophecy' of the battle in the 'Low Place' it was written after the event as history, and appears to have got it wrong, too. If so merely saying where a mosque Had been built is not remarkable.
What's worse is that even if written before the event it would tend to be one of those self -fulfilling prophecies. Because it was in the holy commands, they'd rush to make it happen.
Sorry - that one does you no good at all.
Further, what is to the right or left of something else, depending from which side you approach from? Doesn't that give away that the written text is talking from a particular position from the point of view of the reader? I suspect that if you worked out from where the mosque would appear to be to the left of the mountain you might guess where the Quran had not only been written, but where the writer(s) would expect the readers to be living.
TT old mate, I'd say that you have given this your best shot. The best 'divine -knowledge' arguments will have come out by now and the rest aren't going to be anything like as good.
Ok I had a look and it doesn't say to the left but in front of the mountain and from Sa'na to the mosque is a straight line. There seems to be some confusion about what the 'prophecy' actually is. And where does it come from? Usually it says a Surah or from the Hadiths. You may recall that the Hadiths were dropped as word of God because the 'fly's wing cure' was such an embarrassment.
"Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: The Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said to me,"
Sounds like something from the Hadiths.
I had a look and I suspect it isn't from either. It looks like some history or other.
And look - Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: the prophet (peace be upon him) said to me ” if you build the mosque of Sana’a, make it to the right of a mountain called Deyn”
To explain, Al-Hafez Al-Rahzey says in his book ”The History of Sana’a) that the prophet (peace be upon him) ordered Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee to build the mosque in Bathan park, from where is found a rock in Gamdan and face it to a mountain called Deyn"
(underlinings mine)
So there seems some disagreement. Of course if it is 'facing' the mountain, the line through the mountain to Sa'na is more impressive than 'to the right' (looking to Sa'naa) because how far to the right would it need to be? But that gives a clue. Sure, a line drawn from the mosque through the mountain goes to Sa'naa, but shift the line to one side or the other and it misses. It might be that it only approximately goes through the mountain to Sa'naa.
There's something else. The point of the 'prophecy' is that Muhammad supposedly knew the mosque would be built by the mountain (though if written later - as it appears this passage is, from a Hadith or a history) it is not a prophecy at all.
But the actual point made is apparently not a prophecy but the amazing accuracy of the line. Well - that's down the skill of the builders isn't it? There's nothing miraculous about that at all.
It gets even ore confusing. I suspect that this wabn Ibn fellow might have been a teacher in Sa'naa, which is where one is looking from: "Al-Tabarani narrates in the Mu'jam Al-wsat saying: Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: the prophet (peace be upon him) said to me '' if you build the mosque of Sana'a, make it to the right of a mountain called Deyn'' Apart from that looking like a 'history'. so no comment, you know what I mean, the mosque is in the vicinity of Sa'naa, and not (as the claim implies) a thousand miles away, which might make the supposed accuracy seem remarkable. The more I look at it the less it looks like a miracle and more like an outrageous apologetics fiddle.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-17-2021 at 04:39 PM..
So there seems some disagreement. Of course if it is 'facing' the mountain, the line through the mountain to Sa'na is more impressive than 'to the right' (looking to Sa'naa) because how far to the right would it need to be? But that gives a clue. Sure, a line drawn from the mosque through the mountain goes to Sa'naa, but shift the line to one side or the other and it misses. It might be that it only approximately goes through the mountain to Sa'naa.
There's something else. The point of the 'prophecy' is that Muhammad supposedly knew the mosque would be built by the mountain (though if written later - as it appears this passage is, from a Hadith or a history) it is not a prophecy at all.
But the actual point made is apparently not a prophecy but the amazing accuracy of the line. Well - that's down the skill of the builders isn't it? There's nothing miraculous about that at all. And now I look at the photo even if the mosque is close to the other mosque (which reduces the divergence) if you drew the line from one mosque through the centre of the mountain, it would miss the other mosque.
It gets even ore confusing. I suspect that this wabn Ibn fellow might have been a teacher in Sa'naa, which is where one is looking from: "Al-Tabarani narrates in the Mu'jam Al-wsat saying: Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: the prophet (peace be upon him) said to me '' if you build the mosque of Sana'a, make it to the right of a mountain called Deyn'' Apart from that looking like a 'history'. so no comment, you know what I mean, the mosque is in the vicinity of Sa'naa, and not (as the claim implies) a thousand miles away, which might make the supposed accuracy seem remarkable. The more I look at it the less it looks like a miracle and more like an outrageous apologetics fiddle.
I think you ought (in honesty) to pass around this question of this supposed evidence of...what I'm not sure. I don't think it comes from the Quran or even the Hadiths...that is going the rounds, from what I see. If you were interested in honest assessment of the claims for Islam rather than just evangelizing it and ignoring any debunks.
Don't worry, old chum, TT. You ain't the only one by a long shot. .
this evidence is big and clear and supported and approved by reality
Muslims all over the world when they perform the prayer they direct their faces to the house of Allah in the holy city in Makkah
and all mosques every where are directed there .
the great mosque of Sanaa in Yemen was built in the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)
and the distance between Sanaa and Makkah are more than 800 KM
and it is impossible to calculate the correct angle of the mosque to face Makkah without any modern tools ,
in other word to draw a straight line from a certain point in Sanaa in Yemen and should reach the center of Makkah .
The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) calculated the correct angle.
Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Khozaee said: The Prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said to me,
“If you build the mosque of Sana'a, make it to the right of a mountain called Deyn.”
Al-Hafez Al-Rahzey says in his book “The History of Sana'a”:
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) ordered Wabr ibn Yohanas Al-Ansari when he sent him to Sana’a to be its protector saying
“Call them to Iman (faith to verify the truth).
If they obey you in that then, legislate the Salah (prayers).
If they obey you in that, then go and build the Mosque in Bathan Park,
from where is found a rock in Gamdan
and face it to a mountain called Deyn.”
The Greeks and Phoenicians were calculating angles without modern tools 1000 years before Islam. How do you think they managed to sail to distant ports? Where do you think the Muslims got much of their knowledge?
The Birmingham Quran manuscript is a parchment on which two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript are written. In 2015 the manuscript, which is held by the University of Birmingham, was radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE (in the Islamic calendar, between 56 BH and 25 AH).
That gives a pretty broad date -range (a drawback in C14 dating other than for ruling out modern fakes, for instance) but is well in the date -range for a Quran produced to fit the opinions of an Islamic ruler rather than the Islamic ruler faithfully collating the sayings of the founder of the religion.
The proposed radiocarbon date for the manuscript is significant, as the Islamic prophet Muhammad lived from c. 570 to 632.[21] According to Sunni Muslim tradition it was Abu Bakr (r. 632-634), the first caliph, who compiled The Quran, and Uthman who canonized the standard version of Quran since accepted and used by all Muslims worldwide; then he commanded that all previous versions be burned.[Wiki]
The question about whether the 2 pages correspond with the Quran as we have it today us not clarified for me by what I have looked up so far.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-20-2021 at 08:05 AM..
The Qur’an continued to be preserved in the hearts of the prophet companions who had memorized it,
and on the skins and other materials until the time of the caliph Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allah be pleased with him).
because many death of prophet companions who had memorized the Quran Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) was afraid that the Qur’an would be lost.
He entrusted this mission of compiling the Qur’an in a single book to the chief of memorizers Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allah be pleased with him)
it was very big task for Zayd because he must be correct 100%
because he is dealing with the words of Allah
Zayd said By Allah If they had ordered me to move one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to compile the Qur’an.
Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allah be pleased with him) knew the Qur’an by heart
but he was methodical in his confirmation;
he would not agree to write down any verse until two of the prophet companions testified that they had heard it from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
in other word he used the Quality and assurance process
The current written Quran is exactly the same as it revealed from Allah
That is what we are told, but it can't be true. I'll tell you how it chains together.
The argument is that Muhhamad (an illiterate) had the word of God transmitted to him.
You have spent the entire thread trying to show that it had to be the word of God because it contained things that a man could not know. Not only have you failed to do that but have failed to refute the evidence that the 'science' in the Quran is wrong and/ or reflects the knowledge of men at the time. This is unquestionable evidence that, whoever wrote the Quran, it was not God.
But (so my Late friend LI argued) the poetry is so wonderful that no mere man could write it. The only way to reconcile this is to say that it was written later by poets who could write in that style (1). I found out that poetry was supreme in the courts of the Caliphs and that Uthman had the Quran written and all others destroyed, tells you all you need to know.
So what about the account of how the writing was transmitted from Muhammad? Well we can tell right away that the followers remembering bits of it and a few lines on leather and bits of stone is not going to amount to a Quran. No doubt the basic teachings were the basis for it, but you may bet your last Rupee that the present Quran is the work of Caliph Uthman, reflecting his views much more even than the views of Constantine got into the present Bible.
You have to learn that you need 'unquestionable evidences' not reciting Holybook claims.
P.s the 2 pages of the Birmingham Quran is dated to a broad date that does a date range from Muhammad to Uthman and tells us (broadly) when the parchment was made, not when it was used, though that would normally be 10 - 30 years after it was made, unless it was scraped and re -used. Dating the ink might tell us more. It might be a remain of the first Quran and not the Quran of Uthman, which is why I am curious about any differences.
(1) consider that Shakespeare wrote in a Jacobean style not hard to copy but hard to do as well as he did.
The Greeks and Phoenicians were calculating angles without modern tools 1000 years before Islam. How do you think they managed to sail to distant ports? Where do you think the Muslims got much of their knowledge?
The straight line was from Sanaa in Yemen to the house of Allah in Makkah and the Messenger of Allah was in a different city
to realize the miracle imagine for example we tell some one standing in London to walk in a straight line until he reach Arch of Triumph in Paris
he can direct him self to Paris without tools but in order to be in a specific location he needs tools
Last edited by truth_teller; 02-27-2021 at 06:34 PM..
.... Not only have you failed to do that but have failed to refute the evidence that the 'science' in the Quran is wrong
if there is something wrong, then it would be my interpretation and not the Quran.
Quote:
So what about the account of how the writing was transmitted from Muhammad?
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) appointed a group of his companions who were trustworthy and knowledgeable to write down the revelation.
They are known in their biographies as those who wrote down the Revelation,
such as the four Caliphs,
‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas,
Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan,
Zayd ibn Thaabit
and others – may Allaah be pleased with them all.
if there is something wrong, then it would be my interpretation and not the Quran.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) appointed a group of his companions who were trustworthy and knowledgeable to write down the revelation.
They are known in their biographies as those who wrote down the Revelation,
such as the four Caliphs,
‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas,
Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan,
Zayd ibn Thaabit
and others – may Allaah be pleased with them all.
I'm afraid that won';t do. Your 'evidences' were absolutely clear - they just weren't true or didn't make the argument for the Quran that you were trying to make. Don't blame yourself - the Quran -apologists have been passing around the same claims without ever checking, or so it seems. Just the same as Bible apologists.
as for those who passed the 'Revelation' on, well that's just the claim. One can claim anything where you can't go back in a time machine and find out.
But even if (unlikely as it seems) these bods remembered everything that Muhammad said in this courtly poetry accurately, it doesn't alter the fact that none of it shows science in the Quran that mean couldn't know and the claim about salt and fresh water not mixing is just false, which is really a killer for the Quran as God's word.
Then we get prophecy - "How could he have known of the battle in the 'low place' before it happened?" That (combined with the 'let another write one like it' apologetic) rather forces the explanation that it was written later, when these things were history, the science was known and the writing was very sophisticated and the Caliph had his own ideas about what Islam should be.
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a p.s on this claim.
but I addedited:
