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Old 12-06-2017, 10:46 AM
 
678 posts, read 426,016 times
Reputation: 316

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I can't say enough good things about this advice.

My family vacationed in Vietnam (entirely in the North, including the rural North where we overnighted with a local family). We experienced the kindness and friendliness of people first hand who made us feel welcome and appreciated despite that their term for the "Vietnam war" is "the American war of aggression". We saw their museums in which the focus was on the depredations and suffering of their people under the French, a bit of history we NEVER hear of. We saw war veterans with missing body parts who had every right to be resentful of Americans who were equally nice.

You can't have these experiences and not think differently and more accurately about history. And it has helped me to internalize the fact that my country has its own propaganda, its own agenda, its own secrets and inconvenient truths. It is not "my country, right or wrong".
God, Guns, America! I wish I could convey to this group that other people, especially people in other countries don't idolize you, in fact it's the opposite they're often laughing in disbelief.

I am very grateful to live here with our freedom, comfort and wealth, but the selfish ignorance could destroy us from within.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:58 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,158,492 times
Reputation: 32246
Hillel, when asked by a prospective convert to Judaism to teach him the whole Torah while he stood on one leg, replied: “That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, the rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

Any questions?
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,816,815 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Hillel, when asked by a prospective convert to Judaism to teach him the whole Torah while he stood on one leg, replied: “That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, the rest is commentary. Go forth and study.”

Any questions?
Not what I would call proactive.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32539
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I can't say enough good things about this advice.

My family vacationed in Vietnam (entirely in the North, including the rural North where we overnighted with a local family). We experienced the kindness and friendliness of people first hand who made us feel welcome and appreciated despite that their term for the "Vietnam war" is "the American war of aggression". We saw their museums in which the focus was on the depredations and suffering of their people under the French, a bit of history we NEVER hear of. We saw war veterans with missing body parts who had every right to be resentful of Americans who were equally nice.

You can't have these experiences and not think differently and more accurately about history. And it has helped me to internalize the fact that my country has its own propaganda, its own agenda, its own secrets and inconvenient truths. It is not "my country, right or wrong".
Excellent post.

I remember one day a colleague came to me saying he and his wife were going to Thailand for a summer vacation, and asked what they should see. They were going on a tour, so I said to not worry about what to see. But on free tour time be sure to talk to everyday people. I really emphasized it. When they got back I asked how their trip was, and they told me about temples and buildings. I asked about their experiences just talking to everyday people. They only talked to their Thai tour guide. I just shook head and walked away. They could have rented a video.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo10 View Post
We share some values. Curious if you too grew up in a smallish, homogenous town, pushed your limits instead of staying put like most and feel you have grown because of it.
Yes, exactly!
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:25 AM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,328,376 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbo10 View Post
The Golden Rule ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.") is often referenced when morals are discussed but I don't think it's enough. It doesn't work when you get varying beliefs and personality types. An evangelical can bring up the fear of hell and the atheist can bring up that therapy may be needed for neurosis. Both are honestly trying to help each other yet neither is going to get very far, and will just generate angst.

There's also the Platinum Rule "Treat others the way they want to be treated." Sounds nice, yet doesn't work well with narcissists and other personality types, especially the fringe.

So if you want to grow and fine tune your moral compass how do you strike a balance? Do you try to emphasize self-awareness, stepping outside one's comfort zone / vacuum, more education? Does learning more about psychology and sociology help? Do you emphasize the need to have complete personal comfort and a certain amount of selfishness before you can help make a difference? Do you work on humility? Do higher morals lead to greater happiness? Or do you simply not care?

I don't feel there's a single right answer, but curious how others feel.
Believers incessantly charge non believers with having no moral basis. But the overwhelming majority of us, believers and non believers, live within established societies. What societies do best is to offer those living within the society mutual aid. We all look out for each other. This has a huge survival benefit over individuals who attempt to live alone, outside of the protections provided by society.

The only way a society can provide it's most important benefit is for the members of that society to instinctively apply and follow the golden rule. The golden rule represents the basis of the concept of morality. If you wouldn't want something done to you, don't do that thing to others. Beyond that, judges have traditionally been employed by societies to work out the details of what is fair and what is not. Again, using the concept of the golden rule as the baseline. The golden rule is all about the concept of equity. Which is to say, fairness equally applied.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,733 posts, read 13,268,032 times
Reputation: 9714
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Excellent post.

I remember one day a colleague came to me saying he and his wife were going to Thailand for a summer vacation, and asked what they should see. They were going on a tour, so I said to not worry about what to see. But on free tour time be sure to talk to everyday people. I really emphasized it. When they got back I asked how their trip was, and they told me about temples and buildings. I asked about their experiences just talking to everyday people. They only talked to their Thai tour guide. I just shook head and walked away. They could have rented a video.
SMH -- well it's their loss. A variation of this is the "beach tourist" who overlooks culture, cuisine, museums, culturally oriented tours, and just soaks up the rays. Not that this isn't a choice for some travel, but there is SO much more than that to visiting a country you may well only have one opportunity to experience. I doubt my wife and I will have the time, health or $$ to return to Vietnam but we made it count while we were there.

One of my fondest vignettes of Vietnam was our flight home out of Hanoi. On the last day our daughter came down with some kind of food poisoning or stomach flu or something, and we weren't sure we could get on the plane. We had, for logistical reasons, arrived at Hanoi International several hours ahead of our flight, so I sought out some sort of house physician. A nice gentleman came down to the terminal and examined our daughter, gave her something to calm her stomach, and assured us she was fine to travel.

The fun started when we asked him what we owed him. He was genuinely puzzled; we didn't owe him anything for doing his job.* Finally we convinced him to accept a donation for his favorite charity. Further conversation led us to discover that he was not only the airport physician, but head of security and president of the local Communist Party. He told us how much he admired America and loved our President (Obama at the time, I'm sure it'd be a very different conversation now) and then proceeded to spend a half hour showing us pictures from his cell phone, of his brother's import business and wares in the San Francisco area.

So here we were, enjoying the company of a Communist Party boss, proud of his brother's capitalistic enterprises and very kindly disposed to America and Americans.

* Indeed this had happened a couple of years before when the same daughter had severe flu during a student exchange visit to Spain. We were scrambling to figure out how to pay the hospital. They displayed the same confusion, and then, actually a little bit of feeling insulted. "We are not barbarians, sir; we are duty bound to give your daughter the best possible care as a matter of course. We would not charge you for this." Funny how every country in the West has figured out how to accomplish this, but the good ol' USA.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,154 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32539
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
SMH -- well it's their loss. A variation of this is the "beach tourist" who overlooks culture, cuisine, museums, culturally oriented tours, and just soaks up the rays. Not that this isn't a choice for some travel, but there is SO much more than that to visiting a country you may well only have one opportunity to experience. I doubt my wife and I will have the time, health or $$ to return to Vietnam but we made it count while we were there.

One of my fondest vignettes of Vietnam was our flight home out of Hanoi. On the last day our daughter came down with some kind of food poisoning or stomach flu or something, and we weren't sure we could get on the plane. We had, for logistical reasons, arrived at Hanoi International several hours ahead of our flight, so I sought out some sort of house physician. A nice gentleman came down to the terminal and examined our daughter, gave her something to calm her stomach, and assured us she was fine to travel.

The fun started when we asked him what we owed him. He was genuinely puzzled; we didn't owe him anything for doing his job.* Finally we convinced him to accept a donation for his favorite charity. Further conversation led us to discover that he was not only the airport physician, but head of security and president of the local Communist Party. He told us how much he admired America and loved our President (Obama at the time, I'm sure it'd be a very different conversation now) and then proceeded to spend a half hour showing us pictures from his cell phone, of his brother's import business and wares in the San Francisco area.

So here we were, enjoying the company of a Communist Party boss, proud of his brother's capitalistic enterprises and very kindly disposed to America and Americans.

* Indeed this had happened a couple of years before when the same daughter had severe flu during a student exchange visit to Spain. We were scrambling to figure out how to pay the hospital. They displayed the same confusion, and then, actually a little bit of feeling insulted. "We are not barbarians, sir; we are duty bound to give your daughter the best possible care as a matter of course. We would not charge you for this." Funny how every country in the West has figured out how to accomplish this, but the good ol' USA.
I really enjoyed reading this. Our wonderful Christian nation is awfully capitalistic.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:45 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,470,225 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I really enjoyed reading this. Our wonderful Christian nation is awfully capitalistic.
On paper socialism is better, out in the real word, with the physical limits of being human, capitalistic is than socialistic.
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:57 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,470,225 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
SMH -- well it's their loss. A variation of this is the "beach tourist" who overlooks culture, cuisine, museums, culturally oriented tours, and just soaks up the rays. Not that this isn't a choice for some travel, but there is SO much more than that to visiting a country you may well only have one opportunity to experience. I doubt my wife and I will have the time, health or $$ to return to Vietnam but we made it count while we were there.

One of my fondest vignettes of Vietnam was our flight home out of Hanoi. On the last day our daughter came down with some kind of food poisoning or stomach flu or something, and we weren't sure we could get on the plane. We had, for logistical reasons, arrived at Hanoi International several hours ahead of our flight, so I sought out some sort of house physician. A nice gentleman came down to the terminal and examined our daughter, gave her something to calm her stomach, and assured us she was fine to travel.

The fun started when we asked him what we owed him. He was genuinely puzzled; we didn't owe him anything for doing his job.* Finally we convinced him to accept a donation for his favorite charity. Further conversation led us to discover that he was not only the airport physician, but head of security and president of the local Communist Party. He told us how much he admired America and loved our President (Obama at the time, I'm sure it'd be a very different conversation now) and then proceeded to spend a half hour showing us pictures from his cell phone, of his brother's import business and wares in the San Francisco area.

So here we were, enjoying the company of a Communist Party boss, proud of his brother's capitalistic enterprises and very kindly disposed to America and Americans.

* Indeed this had happened a couple of years before when the same daughter had severe flu during a student exchange visit to Spain. We were scrambling to figure out how to pay the hospital. They displayed the same confusion, and then, actually a little bit of feeling insulted. "We are not barbarians, sir; we are duty bound to give your daughter the best possible care as a matter of course. We would not charge you for this." Funny how every country in the West has figured out how to accomplish this, but the good ol' USA.
yeah, how I wish unicorns and rainbows were real.

I wonder how you could afford the trip and not the hospital stay. sounds like you choose to spend money that would have better been saved. Then, when trouble hit, you blame the system because you did what you wanted and got stuck.

I wish I had the luxury to do what I wanted and have others pay for the rainy days. you know that flood story. blame god because you don't work hard and prepare.
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